Pollywogs #3 - Bye Sam (BOY IS THIS ONE LATE)

Artistunknown

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The 3rd page of Pollywogs is here! One day later than usual 'cause I'm an idiot and this one's really long and has a ton of unnecessary details so hopefully that makes up for it? ._.

Also it was supposed to be up at noon today, and even though Alex said he fixed that issue with the comic thing IT STILL DIDN'T PUBLISH. Ah well.
The page is here: https://machentertainment.com/comics/?comic=pollywogs-3-bye-sam

And now for the usual bit where I beg for feedback and no one gives it to me! Oh wait, this isn't Newgrounds, I DO get feedback here. AIN'T THAT WEIRD, HUH?

Enjoy! :3
 

Dunsparce

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I'm gonna level with you, Art: I really don't understand this. Why do they need to be pollywogs? What about this is supposed to make me want to read it continually? Who is this webcomic intended for? Based on what I've seen thus far, It seems targeted at a pre-teen audience. Because of the name, and the people you're advertising to, I assumed it was going to be a comedy, but instead it's a generic drama about a group of friends (family?) all moving away. Also, they're pollywogs for some reason. I still don't know who these characters are, you haven't done much to tell us. Maybe this is going to be your magnum opus, maybe this is a story you were dying to share with the world, but so far I am not drawn in and I don't care what happens next. If I were you, I would take a month off to release multiple strips at once. It's hard to draw people in at the first couple of pages, and that's all we have now.
 

Artistunknown

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I'm gonna level with you, Art: I really don't understand this. Why do they need to be pollywogs? What about this is supposed to make me want to read it continually? Who is this webcomic intended for? Based on what I've seen thus far, It seems targeted at a pre-teen audience. Because of the name, and the people you're advertising to, I assumed it was going to be a comedy, but instead it's a generic drama about a group of friends (family?) all moving away. Also, they're pollywogs for some reason. I still don't know who these characters are, you haven't done much to tell us. Maybe this is going to be your magnum opus, maybe this is a story you were dying to share with the world, but so far I am not drawn in and I don't care what happens next. If I were you, I would take a month off to release multiple strips at once. It's hard to draw people in at the first couple of pages, and that's all we have now.
It's called "Pollywogs" because they're frogs, and the main characters are the kids, being Toady, and now Sam, and also a few others that will be introduced later. They don't "need" to be pollywogs, they just are 'cause that's the way it is. This is a spin off of a series involving characters I created over a decade ago.

While it's not supposed to make you read it, I was hoping that the characters and story would be enough to keep people coming back, because that's the focus, the characters and the story. There's no specific demographic in mind for this comic, but the idea was initially conceived as a child-friendly TV show, so maybe that is the audience I'm going for, but I would hope that older audiences could appreciate it too, by dealing with more adult themes, and actually having a plot instead of random jokey situations. This is not a comedy and never have I said it was a comedy. There will be some comedic moments here and there, but it's not the focus. Also no, it's not about the family moving away, that's just one thing that's happening. These first few pages were meant to introduce that element and some characters. After this first chapter, it will get into the actual story. I decided to do it this way because I thought it made sense, and a few others have too.

If you actually paid attention to the characters actions, you would see that some of their personalities have been shown, at least for Toady. The majority of the characters in the first 2 pages probably won't be seen again in this particular story, so that's why not much of who they actually are was shown. I know it's an odd choice to have the beginning of a comic be a bridge between one story and another, but that's just how I felt like doing it. Was it a good choice? I don't know, but you don't seem to think so. Since this is a developing story, more of the characters' personalities will be revealed as time goes on. There's still a few more actual main characters to introduce. I might not have "told" a lot about the characters so far, but I certainly have shown a lot.

And no, this is nowhere near my magnum opus. It's just a story I want to tell that's been being developed for a few years now. Not everyone is going to like what I make, and I know and accept this. If you don't like it now, you're probably not going to like it later, and that's fine, it's probably not for you. It's definitely not "generic" though. I'm putting a lot of thought and effort into this, and I'm making it for whoever is actually interested in reading it.
 

Dunsparce

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Ah, so by "give me feedback" you meant "suck my dick." I thought you were after constructive criticism. You probably should have mentioned that you have a fragile little ego and can't handle it.

It's called "Pollywogs" because they're frogs, and the main characters are the kids, being Toady, and now Sam, and also a few others that will be introduced later. They don't "need" to be pollywogs, they just are 'cause that's the way it is. This is a spin off of a series involving characters I created over a decade ago.
Why would you assume that I know about a project you did ten goddamn years ago? If I had known that this was an on going series and seen the previous things you've done with these characters I might have been interested.

If you actually paid attention to the characters actions, you would see that some of their personalities have been shown, at least for Toady.
Yup, the only way someone can dislike something you've made is if they didn't pay attention. Well, having re-read the comic, here's all personality I saw:
"Yay let's hug!"
"Why are we hugging like this?"
"I'm shocked we're splitting up!"
"I'm sad cuz I'll miss you."
I can't really tell you how you make someone care about characters because I'm no author, but this isn't really doing it for me. There's nothing unique about them, ya know, other than being frogs. Again, if I knew about this mysterious project from the dim mists of time, it might be interesting to me.

The majority of the characters in the first 2 pages probably won't be seen again in this particular story, so that's why not much of who they actually are was shown. I know it's an odd choice to have the beginning of a comic be a bridge between one story and another, but that's just how I felt like doing it. Was it a good choice? I don't know, but you don't seem to think so. Since this is a developing story, more of the characters' personalities will be revealed as time goes on. There's still a few more actual main characters to introduce.
That's the problem with the medium you've chosen to present this in. I can't be drawn in three pages in with bare bone generic one-dimensional characters. And it wasn't an odd choice, it was a terrible choice. You could have done a two panel monologue for Toady to explain his situation.

I might not have "told" a lot about the characters so far, but I certainly have shown a lot.
No you haven't. You've drawn the characters with emotive faces, but emotion is different from personality.

Not everyone is going to like what I make, and I know and accept this. If you don't like it now, you're probably not going to like it later, and that's fine, it's probably not for you.
So to paraphrase: "if you don't like, don't read!"
That's a cop out that unprofessional people on the internet like to use to excuse their low quality and avoid criticism.

It's definitely not "generic" though.
Well of course you think that, you're the creator. How do you expect to improve if you refuse to accept criticism?
"I know its good! I made it! How can I, Artist "The New Jesus" Unknown possibly make a mistake?"

I'm putting a lot of thought and effort into this, and I'm making it for whoever is actually interested in reading it.
And I'm trying to tell you how you can get more people interested.

If you want to get rid of criticism, you have two options: Yell at them until they go away, or improve.
 

Artistunknown

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Ah, so by "give me feedback" you meant "suck my dick." I thought you were after constructive criticism. You probably should have mentioned that you have a fragile little ego and can't handle it.
The only actual bit of criticism you had in your original post was that I "didn't tell enough about the characters", and even then that wasn't a valid point because I have shown a lot about the characters, ESPECIALLY in this page. Yeah no, I definitely can't handle any criticism. I don't like ass-kissing, while it may be motivating, it isn't helpful. What you said was not constructive criticism, just a bunch of assumptions and complaints about something because it didn't fit your specific tastes.

Why would you assume that I know about a project you did ten goddamn years ago? If I had known that this was an on going series and seen the previous things you've done with these characters I might have been interested.
I didn't assume you knew about it. Even knowing about the very few things from that "series" I've actually released wouldn't help much with understanding these characters, because the things I have released were written with no actual developed character personalities. I'm not assuming anything, I'm just making something and putting it online for people to see and hopefully like. I've already said that if you don't like it, that's fine, but you could at least give ACTUAL constructive criticism with valid points on how to improve.

Yup, the only way someone can dislike something you've made is if they didn't pay attention.
You've combined two separate things I said to make some kinda point, good job. There's many reasons someone could dislike something I've made. I don't care what their reason is as long as its valid and I can actually learn from it.

Well, having re-read the comic, here's all personality I saw:
"Yay let's hug!"
"Why are we hugging like this?"
"I'm shocked we're splitting up!"
"I'm sad cuz I'll miss you."
I can't really tell you how you make someone care about characters because I'm no author, but this isn't really doing it for me. There's nothing unique about them, ya know, other than being frogs. Again, if I knew about this mysterious project from the dim mists of time, it might be interesting to me.
There's a few more little details in there, but yeah, that's the basic gist. You're really judging this way too early, but again, you don't have to keep reading it if you don't want to. More of the characters' personalities will be revealed as time goes on. These first few pages are more of a prologue than part of the actual story. Besides, the characters don't need to be 100% unique, just unique enough. You say there's nothing unique about them, but I know there is, and it's just not being shown right now but right now is not the right time to show that side of their personalities.

That's the problem with the medium you've chosen to present this in. I can't be drawn in three pages in with bare bone generic one-dimensional characters. And it wasn't an odd choice, it was a terrible choice. You could have done a two panel monologue for Toady to explain his situation.
If the characters were one-dimensional, they would have NO personality, and be reduced to nothing but stereotypes, but they're not. These characters might not have had as much thought put into them as characters for some other things I'm working on, but they did have a good bit put in, and they're definitely more than "one-dimensional". If I were to have a monologue, then that would still be telling instead of showing, which is bad writing. A comic is still a visual medium, and although this comic is still kinda dialog heavy, I think that everything that has happened will contribute to the story and how people feel about the characters later on. I wouldn't say it's a terrible choice though, because it's working better than I originally thought it was. Point taken though, I can try to better simplify situations to better fit a web comic.


No you haven't. You've drawn the characters with emotive faces, but emotion is different from personality.
The way a character reacts to a situation is part of their personality.

So to paraphrase: "if you don't like, don't read!"
That's a cop out that unprofessional people on the internet like to use to excuse their low quality and avoid criticism.
Yeah, except nothing you said originally was valid criticism.

Well of course you think that, you're the creator. How do you expect to improve if you refuse to accept criticism?
A few of the things you've said this time around have actually been legitimate criticism, but it's mixed in with bullshit like this that makes me really question whether you're serious or not.

"I know its good! I made it! How can I, Artist "The New Jesus" Unknown possibly make a mistake?"
Funny. I think I'll actually start using that nickname now.

And I'm trying to tell you how you can get more people interested.
A very easy way to "get more people interested" is to sell out and make a comic about videogame characters, so then everyone can relate 'cause hey know what that is!
Sometimes "getting more people interested" isn't a good thing. If someone isn't already interested, or isn't interested when it gets to the actual story, then it's not for them.

If you want to get rid of criticism, you have two options: Yell at them until they go away, or improve.
How could I improve from you making assumptions, asking stupid questions, and complaining about nothing? Again, this time around you have made a few valid points that I will take into consideration, but originally you did not.
 

coolpool2

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So I know you did that frog man series in the past but I don't feel like checking because the average reader most likely wouldn't. Were the characters in pollywogs the same as in frogman or different? My two cents about this is that you appear to be going for the "sad" story arc that comics usually do but then everything is fine again a couple weeks later. I don't mind this type of story arc but this is a new side comic and we have no attachment to the characters. I personally can not feel any attachment to characters I was just introduced to, so I don't find the comics sad because they are moving away if that's what you are going for. Just for clarification, what emotion should I be feeling when reading these comics? What are you going for with these?
 

Artistunknown

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So I know you did that frog man series in the past but I don't feel like checking because the average reader most likely wouldn't. Were the characters in pollywogs the same as in frogman or different? My two cents about this is that you appear to be going for the "sad" story arc that comics usually do but then everything is fine again a couple weeks later. I don't mind this type of story arc but this is a new side comic and we have no attachment to the characters. I personally can not feel any attachment to characters I was just introduced to, so I don't find the comics sad because they are moving away if that's what you are going for. Just for clarification, what emotion should I be feeling when reading these comics? What are you going for with these?
They are the same characters from FrogMan the Series, however this takes place about 5 years after the events of that series, so it's not really important to know about the characters beforehand.

I'm not going for a "sad" story arc and then everything is fine, I'm just telling a story, and as it turns out, it ended up starting sad 'cause I did it like this. I could've just started with Wise Frog and Toady already moved in, and it would've been straight into the actual story. None of this saying goodbye stuff. I started it this way because I thought it would at least develop the characters somewhat, to know that Toady is kinda emotional and Wise Frog, while he does make reckless decisions (like moving and taking his grandson with him without even informing him before hand), still cares about his grandchildren's feelings, as seen here.

I might've said that this wasn't supposed to be funny, and it was more serious earlier, but I might've misspoken. This is a slice of life story. The comic itself is just the characters living. Toady is at the age where he's going through the last few years of his childhood innocence before he transforms into an angsty teenager, so there will be situations involving romance, 'cause that's just something that happens at that age, and Toady is kinda emotional so some of those feelings will be taken to an extreme like this.

You don't have to "feel" anything specifically. The emotion you're supposed to feel should be obvious by what's happening in the comic at that point.


Anyways, this bit has nothing to do with your post, just me reflecting on this: Should I have started the comic like this, with this first couple pages as a prologue? Probably not. Do I regret doing it? Eh, I still think it'll contribute to the story in the longrun. Does it matter at this point? Nope, 'cause there's only one page left in this chapter and it's closer to the actual story than these last couple pages.

I DON'T WANT TO SPOIL ANYTHING THOUGH.
;3
 

Frilzer

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Please remember that we are on page 3. To me, that's a very short time to establish characters. Yeah, it's something you want to do ASAP. Things can always be better.

Also, on the second panel, to me it reads "yeah..." Then, "so you are moving away?" If you want the reader to read dialogue in the right order, move the bubble you want read first to the left as much as possible. Use a long connector if you have to.
 

Artistunknown

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Please remember that we are on page 3. To me, that's a very short time to establish characters. Yeah, it's something you want to do ASAP. Things can always be better.

Also, on the second panel, to me it reads "yeah..." Then, "so you are moving away?" If you want the reader to read dialogue in the right order, move the bubble you want read first to the left as much as possible. Use a long connector if you have to.
Yeah, see I was afraid that panel wouldn't read properly and I was originally going to have Sam be on the left and Toady be on the right, but then I realized that most of the comic would be from the front view, so to fix the problem with that panel I thought putting the first bit of dialog higher would read properly. I guess if that problem arises again, I can just use a long connecter if there's no other logical option. That might look ugly though, but reading stuff in the proper order is important.
 

Null Hypothesis

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The text works better as a font.

I'm not sure I need a comic about an angsty teen in my life right now, but I'll keep reading to provide criticism.

And some of the previously mentioned advice was also good.
 

Artistunknown

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The text works better as a font.

I'm not sure I need a comic about an angsty teen in my life right now, but I'll keep reading to provide criticism.

And some of the previously mentioned advice was also good.
To clarify: It's not about an angsty teen, it's BEFORE he becomes an angsty teen. I might be treading into spoiler territory, so that's probably all I should say on that.

There IS an angsty character, but they won't be the focus and they won't be introduced for a little bit now, but yeah.

And yeah, I'll keep using a font for now, until I can actually improve my handwritng, which I am working on along with my art in general.

Glad you'll keep reading, even if to just give advice. Who knows, there might be a page or event or something that you can really connect with, or maybe a joke that you like, idk.
 

Walrus

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Is #4 coming? You can not possibly imagine the number of tears shed at the lack of a #4 so far.
 

Artistunknown

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Is #4 coming? You can not possibly imagine the number of tears shed at the lack of a #4 so far.
Yeah, I haven't had internet for about 2 weeks. I do have 4 and 5 done with 6 partially done though. I was considering just not uploading them 'cause during my off time I decided to get back to work on FMTS and put all of my efforts into that, but these pages only take about a day or two so if enough people continue to show interest, I guess I'll continue it.

So yeah, I'll upload #4 in a little bit, and then make the news post when it's up.
 
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