Continuous Who Would Win? [Fight 3: Goku vs Superman]]

Requiem

Well-Known Member
Member
Eh, no, death battles just kinda annoy me once we try to get into the nitty gritty, especially with Goku and Superman/DB and DC.
 

Tirin

God-Emperor of Tealkind
Moderator
Dangalang.

Well, I'd like to see somebody come in on this on the side of Superman, so... I'm just gonna tag some motherfuckers. @Kratoury @Easy @Jeroth, show me what you got.
 

AndyM03

Well-Known Member
Member
Eh. Kryptonite exists
Goku's the kinda bloke to destroy all Kryptonite to make sure Superman is as strong as physically possible when they fight.

And yeah basically agree with everything here, late-midish DBZ Goku would win for sure.
 

Elliot

Confirmed Robot
Member
I'm a huge Superman fan but I'm not interested in this kind of discussion.
That said, for the sake of debate, what are your thoughts on how it was handled here?:
 

Requiem

Well-Known Member
Member
That video is pretty much why I don't like the Goku v superman battle as a whole. It just lacks any nuance. Superman is, by DC canon, limitless, essentially. Goku is, by DB canon, also limitless, but in the way that whatever new limit is placed upon him, he will still always surpass that limit. Goku is interesting and fun, Superman is just made to be powerful and unstoppable.

Goku as a personality is great. Superman as a personality is a good boi. Goku literally has power that surprises and shocks the strongest beings in all of the multiverse of DB. Superman just keeps doing stuff that makes no sense.

And then at the end of the day, Saitama just punches both of them and he wins. Then he gets bored because of course he does, that's the whole point.

Give me a death battle between... the new, rebooted Lara Croft and Nathan Drake. Give me one between the Stay Puft marshmallow man and the Jolly Green Giant. Mr. Clean versus Captain Planet.

Goku and Superman are just dumb characters who up the ante to the point that a fight between them can't ever properly be discussed because one is either infinitely powerful or has the infinite ability to surpass his own strength over and over.

So, One Punch Man wins. Flawless victory.
 

Elliot

Confirmed Robot
Member
I don't think it's fair to say he's a dumb character just because this particular kind of discussion is fairly pointless. The question of whether Superman can win any individual fight is irrelevant, and it'd be dumb and boring if those fights were the point of Superman's story or character -- since he'd always win them and there's no tension there. Superman is more than just "a good boy"; I mean, he is, he is a good person, but that doesn't make him uncompelling or uninteresting unless you're writing him that way. Why, and how, he remains a good person, what it means to be a good person, what it means to hold onto a sense of 'humanity' while not being human at all, what limits there are when you can do anything but not everything -- those are good and interesting questions and people who say he's dumb and boring just because he's always going to win the Fight seem kind of missing the point to me.

That's not the point of this thread and I'mma drop it now; Superman is just a really important character to me.
 

Requiem

Well-Known Member
Member
You asked us to respond to the fight in reference to that video you linked and in that video, the points they make at the end are that Goku always surpasses his limits, but always has limits and that Superman has no limits.
 

Requiem

Well-Known Member
Member
If you wanted to discuss the literary elements of Superman as a character, this wouldn't be the thread to do that. Everything I've said has been in context of a death battle between these two characters. When Superman is written well, he's great, but when we apply logic for the sake of death battles, he becomes a ridiculous character because he and his powers are always being re-interpreted by writers of varying skill levels throughout Supes' life as a comic book character.
 

Tirin

God-Emperor of Tealkind
Moderator
Didn't like that video; aside from the "lifting eternity" thing (which makes little to no sense and/or is irrelevant), the "infinite weight book" thing is misrepresented and doesn't stay at all in line with his other feats. Superman's speed is variable, too, sometimes faster and sometimes slower than light (though most would agree, generally faster at the top of his game, and possibly much, MUCH faster).

Goku was, per a feat, FTL in Dragon Ball (though I can see that being debated). Goku's instant transmission can bring him pretty well from one side of the universe and back in no time and he's capable of using it in combat. In Super, one dude has the ability to skip time by, in effect, "gaining" an extra fraction of a second to move - and can also make his own goddamn dimension to run into out of "stored" time. Not only was Goku able to move during the timeskip, but he punched through the goddamn dimension. His punches in his first fight with Beerus threatened to destroy the entire universe, and were shown dusting planets lightyears away from them.

I'd also contend that, gag character immunity (ie, literary/plot devices) aside, Goku would slam the absolute shit out of Saitama. Boros' biggest attack is on some Saiyan Saga Vegeta-level stuff, and he was considered mook-tier by the time the Ginyu Force showed up.

Agreed with Andy, by the way. Goku's not the kinda dude to rely on some stupid fucking green rocks to win him the match - probably not even if the fate of his universe is at stake.
 

Easy

Right Honorable Justice
Member
Dangalang.

Well, I'd like to see somebody come in on this on the side of Superman, so... I'm just gonna tag some motherfuckers. @Kratoury @Easy @Jeroth, show me what you got.
Yeah, my understanding of these characters is based entirely upon a couple of popular movies and an Abridged series plus several unabridged scenes (which took way too damn long, by comparison, so I stopped).

If you want my two cent's worth anyway, then prepare to be disappointed, because I seriously doubt I can generate anywhere near that amount of Likes here given the current exchange rate:

If we're talking purely a sparring session, to train and/or show who's the stronger fighter:
Goku's fucking ridiculous. Pretty sure he wins outright by virtue of speed, skill, and probably even endurance and physical strength.*~

If it's an absolute, all out no-holds-barred fight to the last, all options open and viable:
- First off, lemme go ahead and establish my opposition to the 'only thing that matters is the absolute physical limitations on ability, not whether the characters actually would do this or that on the given scenario' camp. I think that's really just ignoring or overlooking important and fundamental aspects of a character that are oftentimes very real, significant handicaps.

One Piece
's Sanji is at a serious disadvantage against a female fighter that's anywhere near his level of ability. If you ignore his hangups and insist that he totally could beat up on a woman if he really had to/needed to/wanted to, so his offensive power should totally be counted, then you're not really talking about Sanji going up against Samus, or Lara Croft, or Fubuki or whomever. You're talking about a hypothetical android that's been put together and specially calibrated to match the exact combat specs of the character Sanji.

All this to say that from what I know of Goku, he'll behave exactly the same whether it's just a good-faith sparring match or a battle over the fate of the universe - and that either way, kryptonite does not become a factor in this matchup at all. In fact, isn't there some variety of kryptonite that can actually make Superman stronger? Cause if anything, Goku might even go out of his way to find some of that for Supes (see: Oh Sure, Frieza, Go Ahead And Power Up; Hey Cell, Have A Sentsu Bean).

Superman on the other hand, to the best of my knowledge, would be perfectly willing to 'cheat' and fight dirty if it came down to it. "So what," you ask? "In what way could that possibly circumvent the obstacle of an opponent who overwhelmingly outclasses him fighting at close quarters, and can teleport right on top of or away from him at whim?" Well, I'm not sure it really does.. but if he can stall for long enough to build up the speed required (a thing that Goku totally might just let him do if asked to), Superman totally has precedent for being able to fly back in time and undo his failures. In this case, that'd mean going back to before the Namek arc (or further), and simply beating Goku at that point.

...although he doesn't seem to be mentally capable of actually killing him (and even if he did, it probably wouldn't stick). So I guess that would just end up making Present Goku even stronger, for having suffered that extra defeat in his past.

So maybe he tries again and again until he finds a way to actually prevent Goku level gainz early on, without also dooming the Earth and various other chunks of universe in the process?

Well, that's all I've got. I tried.
And then at the end of the day, Saitama just punches both of them and he wins. Then he gets bored because of course he does, that's the whole point.

So, One Punch Man wins. Flawless victory.
sorry I know I'm perpetuating off-topic derail train here but I have an actual condition where I can't not talk about One Punch Man whenever someone else mentions One Punch Man and-
I'd also contend that, gag character immunity (ie, literary/plot devices) aside, Goku would slam the absolute shit out of Saitama. Boros' biggest attack is on some Saiyan Saga Vegeta-level stuff, and he was considered mook-tier by the time the Ginyu Force showed up.
Ah. Fuck. Ninja'd pretty thoroughly here, down to 'Boros power level roughly equivalent to Saiyan Saga Vegeta power level'.

Was gonna add that Saitama was honestly lucky to have survived that fight; while this has nothing to do with how powerful Boros was compared to him (weak enough for a single serious punch to kill him from like a hundred friggin' yards away), it does help signify just how much of an advantage Goku's and Superman's flight abilities give them compared to Saitama.

Goku's martial art skills factor in really heavily as well; even without being able to match Saitama for speed or strength at all, Garou at his peak is able to put up enough of a fight against Saitama, thanks to the tremendous advantage in fighting skill, to make Saitama want to start fighting seriously... and he doesn't even see Garou any kind of villain, monster, or even a threat to anyone's life at that point.

I'm really confident that Goku would be at least able to go toe-to-toe with Serious Series Saitama for real, is what I'm saying. Even without flying and teleporting and dragonballs, I'd still give him the advantage on that matchup.
 
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