The Michael Brown Case

Lumpy

Well-Known Member
Member
Disagreed. "Bare hands" is generally not considered to be "use of lethal force," unless it's a cop that's been attacked. Then you get apologists arguing that making fists is actually an initiation of lethal force, rather than drawing a gun.
Disparity of force. Wilson was held in his car, his ability to flee was removed from him. His one arm was being held and his other wasn't capable of doing much. His legs were of no help at all. Brown, his attacker, had the upper-hand and complete freedom of movement, but chose to continue holding and attacking Wilson. Wilson was justified in pulling his gun. Allowing himself to be knocked out instead, while being held against his will, is an unreasonable thing to ask of him or anyone. Particularly when you consider the fact that the bulletproof vest, shotgun/rifle, sidearms, handcuffs, and ammunition that can be taken from his car are not only a danger to himself, but could be a danger to the public.

Yes, even when some of them are inconsistent with others, and none of them contradict physical evidence here.
Any that say that Wilson shot Brown in the back are mistaken. Any that say Brown had his hands up are mistaken. Any that say Brown was not moving toward Wilson were mistaken. What claims are you saying should be taken seriously?

That would come down to whether it was found that there was "probable cause" to believe that Brown, (again), being a large but completely unarmed person with no history of violent crime, posed "a significant threat of death or serious harm to the community," which should be pretty tough to sell. Even given that, it's again an example of laws being skewed to give leeway to police for abuse of power, because by no account including Wilson's would Brown's actions be treated as felonious if Wilson were not a cop. Just petty theft, being under the influence of marijuana, and simple assault and battery.
How would Wilson know Brown's history? He knew he matched the description of someone who robbed a convenience store, but he hadn't even confirmed that. All he had to go on was the punch in the face, the grabbing of his gun, and the fact that Brown turned and was moving toward him. Grabbing a cop's gun is a felony in most states, I'm assuming Missouri is no different.

At the moment that Wilson began fearing that the gun could be taken from him and used to kill or seriously injure him, he acknowledged that the gun was posing him a more serious threat than Brown's empty hands were.
And harming his aggressor extremely disproportionately to the amount of threat his aggressor should have been considered to pose, thus resulting in the unnecessary death of an unarmed teenager - classic case of what happens when a handgun is improperly or irresponsibly used - and demonstrating that Wilson was not sufficiently competent to be entrusted with that sort of power.
Because he used his firearm successfully, it didn't pose him any threat and in fact helped defend him from his actual threat, his unidentified aggressor.

All of those being technically possible, but unreasonable to expect. The legal distinction between simple and felony assault is that either serious permanent injury was caused, or a weapon was used. This is so because where ordinary citizens are concerned, people attacking other people without a weapon are not considered to have a reasonable expectation of causing serious, lasting injury without some other proof of intent to do so, which is why they just get charged with a misdemeanor. Wilson could have called for backup and hidden inside his car if he felt scared of Brown, since "cop potentially letting a cigar thief get away temporarily" is, or should be, generally less frowned-upon than "cop shooting a cigar thief to death." Unfortunately, Missouri state law is so structured that people like Wilson's fear of getting beat up by large black people, or being laughed at for hiding from them, is not effectively counterbalanced by a fear of repercussions for outright shooting them - in which case, given that you're not especially concerned about whether you end up killing more big black guys than you really have to, it makes sense that you'd bring a gun to all your (minor, misdemeanor) arrests, and refuse to even carry a taser.
Sounds like you're implying that black men assaulting police officers is so ingrained in their nature that any cops unwilling to gleefully take that assault are just racists looking to kill black guys. Brown assaulted Wilson and grabbed his gun. This reasonably caused him to fear for his life if he allowed his attacker another chance for a physical struggle. It's not hard to argue he'd be scared of allowing Brown a chance to take his gun since he tried once already.

And yes, like I said in one of my first posts, the only leeway he gets here as a cop is that he had the legal right and duty to pursue Brown, certainly not to arrest him as a thief though. That's just ridiculous. These would have been felony charges had Mike Brown surrendered. He also didn't go out just to arrest Mike Brown for his cigar theft. I'm really not sure where you got that idea.
 

Easy

Right Honorable Justice
Member
Disparity of force. Wilson was held in his car, his ability to flee was removed from him. His one arm was being held and his other wasn't capable of doing much. His legs were of no help at all. Brown, his attacker, had the upper-hand and complete freedom of movement, but chose to continue holding and attacking Wilson. Wilson was justified in pulling his gun. Allowing himself to be knocked out instead, while being held against his will, is an unreasonable thing to ask of him or anyone. Particularly when you consider the fact that the bulletproof vest, shotgun/rifle, sidearms, handcuffs, and ammunition that can be taken from his car are not only a danger to himself, but could be a danger to the public.
If he'd only shot Brown during the struggle inside the car, that would be pretty understandable for those reasons. (Though it's very unlikely that Brown was the one who first drew Wilson's gun from its holster while reaching through the window of Wilson's SUV). The issue is that he fired most of the shots at Brown in a situation where none of those things apply at all, which ended up killing him.
Any that say that Wilson shot Brown in the back are mistaken. Any that say Brown had his hands up are mistaken.
Granted on the shots in the back, but that doesn't mean Wilson didn't shoot at his back and miss. Wilson's testimony is the only one that doesn't include either shots being fired while Brown was running away, or Brown putting his hands up or to the side when he turned around. Wilson is also the least impartial witness out of all of them, whose testimony should be the most highly doubted, and the fact that physical evidence doesn't also directly contradict his testimony in any way (except in that there were no powder marks on Brown's hands or clothing, which would be expected if he were grabbing the gun when he was first shot), doesn't also prove it to be true.
Any that say Brown was not moving toward Wilson were mistaken.
Again, Wilson's testimony is the only one that claims Brown was A) charging at him threateningly, or B) only shot at, incident in the car excluded, after starting to move towards Wilson. Other accounts range from stating that he was shot at while running away, then turned and stopped with his hands up before being shot in the front and stumbling forward; to saying that he was shot at while running away, then turned around and put his hands out to the side before being shot and staggering forward "with his arms under his stomach." Accounts, Wilson's excluded, are very consistent on that Brown did not "charge" Wilson after turning around, and that he was clearly incapacitated (and therefore not, reasonably, a threat) well before Wilson fired the killing shot.
What claims are you saying should be taken seriously?
A guy got killed, so all of them. Especially when the eyewitness accounts so consistently and overwhelmingly contradict the shooter's.
How would Wilson know Brown's history? He knew he matched the description of someone who robbed a convenience store, but he hadn't even confirmed that. All he had to go on was the punch in the face, the grabbing of his gun, and the fact that Brown turned and was moving toward him. Grabbing a cop's gun is a felony in most states, I'm assuming Missouri is no different.
Since it's not unlikely, based on the evidence, that Brown never grabbed the gun, and since he almost certainly didn't grab or attempt to grab the gun before Wilson drew it on him, that all hinges on the idea that anybody who ever punches a cop may then reasonably expect to be shot dead if they end up doing anything after that involves "facing that cop's direction," regardless of how far away they may be, how clearly unarmed they are, or how slowly (if at all) they are moving towards the cop.

Or maybe that just applies to people who steal cigars from convenience stores?
Because he used his firearm successfully, it didn't pose him any threat and in fact helped defend him from his actual threat, his unidentified aggressor.
Because he was directly afraid of being harmed by the gun, it by definition posed him a threat. Because his use of the firearm resulted in the death of an unarmed, almost-definitely-surrendering petty criminal, the firearm was used improperly. Because he missed several shots while firing at said unarmed petty criminal, (some probably while said criminal was fleeing), he recklessly endangered the lives of any people nearby or in a similar line of fire to Brown; and because the shooting happened in a residential area, there was plenty of reason to believe that there actually may well be people nearby being endangered.
Sounds like you're implying that black men assaulting police officers is so ingrained in their nature that any cops unwilling to gleefully take that assault are just racists looking to kill black guys. Brown assaulted Wilson and grabbed his gun. This reasonably caused him to fear for his life if he allowed his attacker another chance for a physical struggle. It's not hard to argue he'd be scared of allowing Brown a chance to take his gun since he tried once already.
Then, again, he should have left the gun in his car, since he had a reasonable (YMMV) fear of being killed with it. The expectation of being severely or mortally injured in a struggle against an unarmed assailant is not reasonable, and is a shitty excuse for using lethal force against an unarmed man, which is generally legally well-recognized when assault on civilians is being considered. Especially when said unarmed assailant isn't actually even assaulting you anymore when you do it, and you've already shot up his arm.
And yes, like I said in one of my first posts, the only leeway he gets here as a cop is that he had the legal right and duty to pursue Brown, certainly not to arrest him as a thief though. That's just ridiculous. These would have been felony charges had Mike Brown surrendered. He also didn't go out just to arrest Mike Brown for his cigar theft. I'm really not sure where you got that idea.
Certainly not to execute him, though. And the thing is that I actually find a cop using his gun to get back at the guy who punched him in the face to be even less sympathetic than a cop using his gun to stop a thief.
 
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Lumpy

Well-Known Member
Member
If he'd only shot Brown during the struggle inside the car, that would be pretty understandable for those reasons. (Though it's very unlikely that Brown was the one who first drew Wilson's gun from its holster while reaching through the window of Wilson's SUV). The issue is that he fired most of the shots at Brown in a situation where none of those things apply at all, which ended up killing him.
Wilson drew the gun. He was being held and assaulted, he had no option to retreat, few options for fighting back, and being knocked out or worse was a serious possibility in his mind, as it would be for anyone that's being attacked unprovoked. Brown put him in this state, both physical and mental. Brown had the upper-hand, and he was the attacker. Pulling the gun here falls under self defense in almost any state. The responsibility is on the attacker to not attack or bring the defender to that point.

Granted on the shots in the back, but that doesn't mean Wilson didn't shoot at his back and miss. Wilson's testimony is the only one that doesn't include either shots being fired while Brown was running away, or Brown putting his hands up or to the side when he turned around. Wilson is also the least impartial witness out of all of them, whose testimony should be the most highly doubted, and the fact that physical evidence doesn't also directly contradict his testimony in any way (except in that there were no powder marks on Brown's hands or clothing, which would be expected if he were grabbing the gun when he was first shot), doesn't also prove it to be true.
If Wilson shot at his back and missed, then we are again talking about Brown stopping his momentum, turning, and sprinting at Wilson in only a few seconds. Autopsy shows his palms were not facing Wilson when he was shot. Residue was found in a wound on Browns thumb from a shot fired at close range. His blood was also found on the gun. Wilson's testimony is in fact supported by all known physical evidence. Many other testimonies completely contradict known physical evidence.

Again, Wilson's testimony is the only one that claims Brown was A) charging at him threateningly, or B) only shot at, incident in the car excluded, after starting to move towards Wilson. Other accounts range from stating that he was shot at while running away, then turned and stopped with his hands up before being shot in the front and stumbling forward; to saying that he was shot at while running away, then turned around and put his hands out to the side before being shot and staggering forward "with his arms under his stomach." Accounts, Wilson's excluded, are very consistent on that Brown did not "charge" Wilson after turning around, and that he was clearly incapacitated (and therefore not, reasonably, a threat) well before Wilson fired the killing shot.
A guy got killed, so all of them. Especially when the eyewitness accounts so consistently and overwhelmingly contradict the shooter's.
All accounts that claim he was shot at from behind logically lead to Brown charging Wilson when taking physical evidence into account. All accounts that claim he was surrendering negate the "shot at from behind" accounts, since they require him charging at some point. That means, for the surrendering claim to have any validity at all, Brown would have had to walk back while not being shot, put his hands up, and then be fired at 10 times with a short pause in the middle. Wilson somehow missing the completely stationary Brown about 3-4 times. Autopsy reports suggest his palms were not facing Wilson when he was shot so even that claim would be very dodgy. I'm also doubting it was ever made.

Since it's not unlikely, based on the evidence, that Brown never grabbed the gun, and since he almost certainly didn't grab or attempt to grab the gun before Wilson drew it on him, that all hinges on the idea that anybody who ever punches a cop may then reasonably expect to be shot dead if they end up doing anything after that involves "facing that cop's direction," regardless of how far away they may be, how clearly unarmed they are, or how slowly (if at all) they are moving towards the cop.

Or maybe that just applies to people who steal cigars from convenience stores?
Anyone that tries to grab a cops gun can be considered dangerous to physically engage by that cop. Seems perfectly reasonable to me not to physically engage someone who has shown intent to seriously harm or kill you. Physical evidence shows Brown moved toward Wilson.

Because he was directly afraid of being harmed by the gun, it by definition posed him a threat. Because his use of the firearm resulted in the death of an unarmed, almost-definitely-surrendering petty criminal, the firearm was used improperly. Because he missed several shots while firing at said unarmed petty criminal, (some probably while said criminal was fleeing), he recklessly endangered the lives of any people nearby or in a similar line of fire to Brown; and because the shooting happened in a residential area, there was plenty of reason to believe that there actually may well be people nearby being endangered.
The shooting while fleeing theory doesn't hold much water timing wise. And again, he wasn't shooting him for the cigar theft, he has no authority to even claim Brown was the cigar thief or decide his fate on that matter. He was shooting because he felt that Brown meant him serious harm. His cigar theft doesn't enter into this matter at all.

Then, again, he should have left the gun in his car, since he had a reasonable (YMMV) fear of being killed with it. The expectation of being severely or mortally injured in a struggle against an unarmed assailant is not reasonable, and is a shitty excuse for using lethal force against an unarmed man, which is generally legally well-recognized when assault on civilians is being considered. Especially when said unarmed assailant isn't actually even assaulting you anymore when you do it, and you've already shot up his arm.
Wilson would probably not have been aware of where he had hit Brown, if he had hit at all, in the struggle in his car. And again, once you overpower someone, it's pretty much your call how far you want to go. He could have killed Wilson in any number of ways, or he could have taken his gear and used it to harm others, or both. Wilson could not have known Brown's intentions, and neither can you. All he knows is that he was attacked, his attacker attempted to take his gun, and his attacker was coming back at him. It's reasonable for him to think that his attacker meant him very serious harm, and things could have gone a lot worse for him had he not taken his firearm with him.

Certainly not to execute him, though. And the thing is that I actually find a cop using his gun to get back at the guy who punched him in the face to be even less sympathetic than a cop using his gun to stop a thief.
If you don't set out to execute someone, you are not by it's very definition executing someone. Brown's actions led Wilson to believe him to be an ongoing threat. He shot to defend himself. Unless you have something to suggest otherwise, it was a reaction to being attacked, alone, and his attacker not surrendering, not some plan he had to seek out Mike Brown and kill him.
 
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Easy

Right Honorable Justice
Member
Wilson drew the gun. He was being held and assaulted, he had no option to retreat, few options for fighting back, and being knocked out or worse was a serious possibility in his mind, as it would be for anyone that's being attacked unprovoked. Brown put him in this state, both physical and mental. Brown had the upper-hand, and he was the attacker. Pulling the gun here falls under self defense in almost any state. The responsibility is on the attacker to not attack or bring the defender to that point.
All well and good, but again, these are not the circumstances under which Brown was most repeatedly, and ultimately fatally, shot.
If Wilson shot at his back and missed, then we are again talking about Brown stopping his momentum, turning, and sprinting at Wilson in only a few seconds.
I don't know how you arrived at that conclusion at all. Analysts say that Brown's rate of movement could not be inferred from the physical evidence, and every eyewitness account that isn't Wilson's has quite clearly contradicted Wilson's claim that Brown was anything close to sprinting when he was hit for the second through final times.
Autopsy shows his palms were not facing Wilson when he was shot.
Autopsy shows that his palms were not facing Wilson when he was shot again in the arm. By all eyewitness accounts, the position and direction of all of Brown's limbs changed drastically over the course of taking several shots to the front of his body, which is entirely to be expected when that sort of thing happens. Which bullets hit or missed in what order is completely unknown.
Residue was found in a wound on Browns thumb from a shot fired at close range. His blood was also found on the gun.
That's anywhere between 'ambiguous' and 'misleading', since "close range" isn't well defined and could actually mean literally anywhere in the front of the car, which Michael Brown's blood could be found all over. (Given the lack of powder residue on any part of him, however, it's unlikely to include the immediate vicinity of the barrel.)
Wilson's testimony is in fact supported by all known physical evidence. Many other testimonies completely contradict known physical evidence.
Correction, again, that Wilson's testimony is not directly contradicted by any known physical evidence, and that no physical evidence contradicts any eyewitness accounts except, arguably, that of Brown's friend Dorian Johnson.
All accounts that claim he was shot at from behind lead to Brown charging Wilson when taking physical evidence into account. All accounts that claim he was surrendering negate the "shot at from behind" accounts, since they require him charging at some point.
But they don't, though, and that doesn't make any sense. The witnesses aren't all wrong just because you say so.
That means, for the surrendering claim to have any validity at all, Brown would have had to walk back while not being shot, put his hands up, and then be fired at 10 times with a short pause in the middle. Wilson somehow missing the completely stationary Brown about 3-4 times.
How's that work?
Autopsy reports suggest his palms were not facing Wilson when he was shot so even that claim would be very dodgy. I'm also doubting it was ever made.
Again, autopsy report only suggests his palms were not facing Wilson one of the times he was shot. Evidence suggests, and everyone agrees, that Brown fell over and died while Wilson was shooting at him. This means that even if, say, 3 other shots hit Brown while he had his hands up, another one still could have hit his arm on his way down. This is another example of why "doesn't directly contradict the shooter's statement" and "supports the shooter's statement" aren't the same thing.
Anyone that tries to grab a cops gun can be considered dangerous to physically engage by that cop. Seems perfectly reasonable to me not to physically engage someone who has shown intent to seriously harm or kill you. Physical evidence shows Brown moved toward Wilson.
We're not implying that any cop who allegedly has his gun grabbed by somebody then has carte blanche to use lethal force on them whenever they feel like doing so from that point forward, are we?
The shooting while fleeing theory doesn't hold much water timing wise. And again, he wasn't shooting him for the cigar theft, he has no authority to even claim Brown was the cigar thief or decide his fate on that matter. He was shooting because he felt that Brown meant him serious harm. His cigar theft doesn't enter into this matter at all.
Unless your position is that seven seconds is too little time to stop one direction and turn to face another, the shooting while running theory is fine timing-wise. If anything the timing suggests it's highly unlikely that Wilson was telling the truth about not opening fire until Brown "charged" at him, since witnesses and physical evidence agree on that the shooting took place with Brown being positioned less than 30 feet away from Wilson, and I've seen people Brown's size take less than five seconds to run 120 feet. So, here the evidence actually is more consistent with eyewitness testimony than it is with Wilson's, and suggests that he didn't open fire out of necessary self-defense at all. (Even if I were, like you, to start accepting "unload a mag into him" as necessary and acceptable self-defense against an unarmed approaching stranger.)
Wilson would probably not have been aware of where he had hit Brown, if he had hit at all, in the struggle in his car. And again, once you overpower someone, it's pretty much your call how far you want to go. He could have killed him in any number of ways, or he could have taken his gear and used it to harm others, or both.
Brown could also have taken Wilson's wallet, found his address, burned down his house and shot his dog, then stolen his squad car and run over the President with it. Again, not all theoretical possibilities in any given scenario are reasonable expectations. And Wilson should have been very aware of where he had hit Brown in the car, since Brown bled all over him, his car, and his gun from the wound immediately afterward.
Wilson could not have known Brown's intentions, and neither can you. All he knows is that he was attacked, his attacker attempted to take his gun, and his attacker was coming back at him. It's reasonable for him to think that his attacker meant him very serious harm, and things could have gone a lot worse for him had he not taken his firearm with him.
He's paid tax money to be a trained professional and to handle potentially dangerous situations without discharging his firearm everywhere every time, and also had pepper spray and a baton on his person. And on top of that, which assumes he's telling the truth in the first place, we also have plenty of reason to doubt that he could, in this case, even have reasonably expected that Brown was attempting to attack him or otherwise meant him serious harm when he stopped chasing and started shooting at him.
If you don't set out to execute someone, you are not by it's very definition executing someone. Brown's actions led Wilson to believe him to be an ongoing threat. He shot to defend himself. Unless you have something to suggest otherwise, it was a reaction to being attacked, alone, and his attacker not surrendering, not some plan he had to seek out Mike Brown and kill him.
If you do set out to execute someone, then kill them in the process, you are by its very definition executing someone even if you say you aren't. Eyewitness accounts, recordings of the shots, and distance between the body and shell casings give plenty of reason to believe that Wilson may not have opened fire in response to anything that could reasonably be interpreted as an attack, but instead aggressively and recklessly. Even if not, there really shouldn't be any argument that his use of force was excessive; and given that it resulted in an unnecessary death, that it's something that people in his position should have to answer for.
 

Lumpy

Well-Known Member
Member
All well and good, but again, these are not the circumstances under which Brown was most repeatedly, and ultimately fatally, shot.
This is about why the gun came into play in the first place. Why Wilson felt the need to pull it. I'm glad we agree it's all well and good here.

I don't know how you arrived at that conclusion at all. Analysts say that Brown's rate of movement could not be inferred from the physical evidence, and every eyewitness account that isn't Wilson's has quite clearly contradicted Wilson's claim that Brown was anything close to sprinting when he was hit for the second through final times.
That's because they don't have the starting point for when Brown turned around. You are claiming it's after Wilson shot from behind, which means that everything that happened after happened in only about 5 seconds at the most.

That's anywhere between 'ambiguous' and 'misleading', since "close range" isn't well defined and could actually mean literally anywhere in the front of the car, which Michael Brown's blood could be found all over. (Given the lack of powder residue on any part of him, however, it's unlikely to include the immediate vicinity of the barrel.)
Close range is determined mostly by the concentration of residue. Residue was found only in a wound on his thumb. And residue was indeed found by the official autopsy. Reaching through a window, and having your thumb right in front of the barrel, would not allow residue to get anywhere else on you. It mostly comes out in a cone. And close range when it comes to residue is always within a foot and determined by how concentrated the powder is. In this case, it was only in Brown's thumb wound, no where else on him. The residue supports Wilson's testimony.

Correction, again, that Wilson's testimony is not directly contradicted by any known physical evidence, and that no physical evidence contradicts any eyewitness accounts except, arguably, that of Brown's friend Dorian Johnson.
Except they all do since everything I said was valid.

But they don't, though, and that doesn't make any sense. The witnesses aren't all wrong just because you say so.
They are if physical evidence says so.

How's that work?
Physical evidence. All shots came from the front. Brown needed the time to calmly walk over, so it would have had to been before Wilson shot at all. Brown moved a minimum of 20 feet toward Wilson. Otherwise, Wilson was shooting at Brown while Brown was moving toward him, contradicting the eye witness testimony.

Again, autopsy report only suggests his palms were not facing Wilson one of the times he was shot. Evidence suggests, and everyone agrees, that Brown fell over and died while Wilson was shooting at him. This means that even if, say, 3 other shots hit Brown while he had his hands up, another one still could have hit his arm on his way down. This is another example of why "doesn't directly contradict the shooter's statement" and "supports the shooter's statement" aren't the same thing.
Fair enough. The claim is still ridiculous, but not on the basis of the autopsy reports showing he was shot with his hands down.

We're not implying that any cop who allegedly has his gun grabbed by somebody then has carte blanche to use lethal force on them whenever they feel like doing so from that point forward, are we?
Only if that cop feels he is still in danger and has a legitimate reason to feel as such. Such as the one who grabbed your gun coming back for a second try.

Unless your position is that seven seconds is too little time to stop one direction and turn to face another, the shooting while running theory is fine timing-wise. If anything the timing suggests it's highly unlikely that Wilson was telling the truth about not opening fire until Brown "charged" at him, since witnesses and physical evidence agree on that the shooting took place with Brown being positioned less than 30 feet away from Wilson, and I've seen people Brown's size take less than five seconds to run 120 feet. So, here the evidence actually is more consistent with eyewitness testimony than it is with Wilson's, and suggests that he didn't open fire out of necessary self-defense at all. (Even if I were, like you, to start accepting "unload a mag into him" as necessary and acceptable self-defense against an unarmed approaching stranger.)
Mag dumping center mass is proper training when it comes to self-defense for multiple reasons.

Eye witness testimony never said he didn't shoot out of self-defense. Again, they can't make that claim. They can make claims on what they saw. What they saw contradicts physical evidence. Feel free to find one that doesn't.

In 6 seconds from the first shot he had a bullet through his eye, I think it's fair to assume he stopped moving toward Wilson after that. 5 shots missed. Being generous and assuming it was the first 5, that means he stopped his momentum of running away and managed to turn himself around in almost exactly 1 second. In the next 4 seconds, he moved 20 feet toward the officer while being shot, clearly not giving up despite that. Wilson hit each shot he took in this 4 seconds. What witness testimony says this is what happened?

Brown could also have taken Wilson's wallet, found his address, burned down his house and shot his dog, then stolen his squad car and run over the President with it. Again, not all theoretical possibilities in any given scenario are reasonable expectations. And Wilson should have been very aware of where he had hit Brown in the car, since Brown bled all over him, his car, and his gun from the wound immediately afterward.
That's why determining what is and is not self defense is based on whether or not one has a reason to feel afraid. Wilson had every reason to fear his weapons or other dangerous equipment being taken, as that's what Brown tried to do. He had every reason to fear Brown meant him harm, as Brown had purposely harmed him. He has absolutely no reason or obligation to give Brown, his attacker, the benefit of the doubt when he approached a second time.

Wilson said himself he was unsure if he had hit Brown or how bad it was. There's no reason to assume he would have known Brown's injuries or their severity, just that he was possibly injured.

He's paid tax money to be a trained professional and to handle potentially dangerous situations without discharging his firearm everywhere every time, and also had pepper spray and a baton on his person. And on top of that, which assumes he's telling the truth in the first place, we also have plenty of reason to doubt that he could, in this case, even have reasonably expected that Brown was attempting to attack him or otherwise meant him serious harm when he stopped chasing and started shooting at him.
There's no reason to doubt that. He was attacked once, his gun grabbed, why assume Brown wasn't moving toward him for a round 2?

Cops don't fight one on one. That's an incredibly stupid thing to do. They don't know what kinds of weapons people may be hiding, who or where their friends are, what kind of training that person may have. It's too unknown.

If you do set out to execute someone, then kill them in the process, you are by its very definition executing someone even if you say you aren't. Eyewitness accounts, recordings of the shots, and distance between the body and shell casings give plenty of reason to believe that Wilson may not have opened fire in response to anything that could reasonably be interpreted as an attack, but instead aggressively and recklessly. Even if not, there really shouldn't be any argument that his use of force was excessive; and given that it resulted in an unnecessary death, that it's something that people in his position should have to answer for.
Brown's intentions were unknown. He gave Wilson reason to believe that his intentions were aggressive and possibly lethal. Wilson responded based on Brown's actions. Brown should not have attacked, should not have attempted to take the gun, and should not have moved back toward Wilson. If all of this is true, as the physical evidence paints, then Wilson had no reliable option other than to fire at his attacker. Anything else would have been a bad call and incredibly reckless.

Every "bad" decision you are faulting Wilson for was done in a frantic response to a worse decision made by Brown.
 
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Easy

Right Honorable Justice
Member
I was going to make some time to actually videotape things like how a much shorter person than Brown could casually stroll 30 feet in 7 seconds, 30 feet being the maximum distance we have any reason to believe that Brown "charged" Wilson over the course of Wilson firing, because you keep failing to address that discrepancy. I decided that I didn't want to put in that time in the end, but will point out again that unless the number of feet between them was in the hundreds when Wilson started firing, there is simply no way that he didn't start shooting while Brown was either moving away from him, standing still, or moving towards him very slowly. Not over that kind of timespan. I'll also repeat, again, that while Wilson excused his failure to use his pepper spray or baton during the fight in the car by saying he couldn't reach them while struggling in a confined space, there is no such comment as to why neither of those were his first resort outside of the car. Again, I don't feel it's at all reasonable to consider the engagements inside and outside of the car to be a single, continuous event for this purpose, given that the transition involved a dramatic change in circumstances.

I'd also like to posit a hypothetical for you. As follows: Person A, who is armed, initiates a physical altercation with Person B, who is unarmed. Person B responds by punching Person A in the face. Is it reasonable to then say, in a court of law, that Person B initiated or even actually used lethal force against Person A? Given that Person A is a police officer and used lethal force to effect an arrest against someone not using lethal force, would it be fair to say that Person A's use of force was at the very least excessive?
 

Lumpy

Well-Known Member
Member
Depends on the reasoning for the initial force. The one who initiated unjustifiable force is usually at fault for the whole encounter. That doesn't give the defender carte blanche to kill or make the situation worse though. To even pull out a weapon, they need to be at a disadvantage/unable to retreat and have a legitimate reason to fear for their life. We're talking about civilians here though, cops don't have to try to retreat first.

And Person B used force when he attacked and held an officer sitting in his car, simultaneously taking away his ability to retreat and most of his options to fight. Person B used lethal force when he attempted to grab a lethal weapon that Person A pulled in an effort to defend himself with his one free hand. Person B then tried to keep the altercation going instead of surrendering to the officer when chased.

The reason for shooting wasn't to arrest. It was to stop or kill. It did as intended so it wasn't at all excessive, provided it was actually an issue of self-defense. Were you under the impression that Wilson was arguing he needed to shoot in order to arrest Brown? Because that is just not the case. He shot because he was attacked once and claimed that he was about to be attacked again.

And I know how distances and speed work. I've probably brought up the 21-foot rule somewhere around here before. What I was saying is that the witnesses contradict physical evidence. If the story you are coming up with now, that Brown was shot at while standing still first, and then moved toward Wilson, then find a witness that made that claim. Otherwise, witness testimony contradicts your theory. Are you all of a sudden in favour of ignoring the testimony?
 

Easy

Right Honorable Justice
Member
Eyewitness testimonies overwhelmingly agree that Wilson began shooting at Brown while Brown was still running away from him, as previously mentioned. Since you are apparently in favor of ignoring all other testimony except but Wilson's, I decided to humor that viewpoint and present alternative actual possibilities that would be within what is suggested by the physical evidence. Don't try to selectively interpret various parts of that statement as areas of actual agreement with your point of view.

In terms of Person A and Person B, you're leaving out that Person A started the confrontation by pulling up in front of Person B and (intentionally) hitting him with his car door, and that even if we accept that Person B "used lethal force" by trying to grab Person A's gun from him, Person A still (by a larger number of definitions) initiated lethal force by drawing it in the first place. Regardless, Person A actually used the gun at a time when Person B was unmistakably and undeniably nowhere near it or any other weapon but his one functional hand, and therefore not (by any reasonable legal definition) attacking him with lethal force at all.

And are you serious in implying that killing an unarmed and wounded person in self-defense is not actually excessive, provided that a policeman is doing so? Aren't they far enough above the law as it is, already?
 

Tirin

God-Emperor of Tealkind
Moderator
Person B used lethal force when he attempted to grab a lethal weapon that Person A pulled in an effort to defend himself with his one free hand.
???

If you pull out a gun with which to shoot me, I am using lethal force in trying to grab it, and thereby prevent being shot?
 

Lumpy

Well-Known Member
Member
???

If you pull out a gun with which to shoot me, I am using lethal force in trying to grab it, and thereby prevent being shot?
If you pin someone down and leave them with limited options to retreat or fight back, pulling the weapon is not an escalation of force, since they are incapable or unlikely to match your force otherwise. They, the defender, are at a significant disadvantage and are warranted in using a weapon to defend themselves from you, an aggressor. If they were in any way the aggressor, or you were justified in your initial aggressive actions, none of this applies.

EDIT: Nevermind, I see what you mean. I worded that wrong. Brown at no point used lethal force. But by attempting to disarm Wilson, he gave him a valid reason to fear for his safety in any kind of physical struggle. That's what I meant.

Eyewitness testimonies overwhelmingly agree that Wilson began shooting at Brown while Brown was still running away from him, as previously mentioned. Since you are apparently in favor of ignoring all other testimony except but Wilson's, I decided to humor that viewpoint and present alternative actual possibilities that would be within what is suggested by the physical evidence. Don't try to selectively interpret various parts of that statement as areas of actual agreement with your point of view.
I'm in favour of ignoring testimony that can't be proven or would be thrown out in court, since it's otherwise a waste of time, money and would only solidify Wilson as Not Guilty, which could be a premature thing to say.

Witnesses have always been the least reliable form of evidence. On top of that, they are particularly unreliable in this case. Not only was the event sensationalized as an issue of racism, with identities and colours very quickly released, almost all testimony contradict each other or physical evidence. Should the one's that say Wilson shot from inside his patrol car at a fleeing Brown be chalked up to the "He was shot at from behind" column or should they be thrown out entirely? Should the ones that say there were several patrol cars there while Wilson shot be used against him in court? The media made such a mess of this case that the cops had to sort through several eye witness reports from people that were either never there at all or later admitted to never actually seeing the most critical parts of their story.

In terms of Person A and Person B, you're leaving out that Person A started the confrontation by pulling up in front of Person B and (intentionally) hitting him with his car door, and that even if we accept that Person B "used lethal force" by trying to grab Person A's gun from him, Person A still (by a larger number of definitions) initiated lethal force by drawing it in the first place. Regardless, Person A actually used the gun at a time when Person B was unmistakably and undeniably nowhere near it or any other weapon but his one functional hand, and therefore not (by any reasonable legal definition) attacking him with lethal force at all.
If the car door thing happened then sure. I don't think you can send a man to jail on the basis of "This guys friend said you hit him with your car door and we think it was on purpose" and I'm betting most judges agree, but if that is actually what happened, then Wilson is at the very least morally responsible for everything.

The claim was that Person B was attempting to go for him again. This is supported by both physical evidence and eye witness testimony. He claimed that he feared being disarmed, beaten unconscious and/or killed. A valid fear if his claim of almost being disarmed once by Mr. B is true, which physical evidence suggests it is.

And are you serious in implying that killing an unarmed and wounded person in self-defense is not actually excessive, provided that a policeman is doing so? Aren't they far enough above the law as it is, already?
Not at all. I was pretty clear on the only difference between a policeman and a civilian throughout this entire thread. However, to clarify, the difference is that an officer can legally go after a threat. A civilian cannot. There are no other differences. Anyone may shoot an unarmed and wounded person in self-defense.
 
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Easy

Right Honorable Justice
Member
The allegation that Wilson intentionally hit Brown with his car door prior to the altercation is, in fact, confirmed in Wilson's own testimony, though Wilson claims his aim was only to "push him back" with the door. I have great difficulty, however, imagining a scenario where he opens the door, lightly rests it against Brown's torso, and then gently pushes him away rather than simply striking him with it. (To clarify: Wilson did not claim that the former was the case; I'm just preempting any argument that it could have been so). As to the inconsistency of eyewitness accounts: I've yet to read one that said Wilson only started shooting after Brown turned around, with Wilson's being the only exception to that.

Brown didn't use deadly force* at any point, but Wilson still resorted to deadly force, which is actually a pretty textbook example of "escalating" a conflict. Moreover, I'm having trouble resolving the claim that a cop like Wilson has every right to defend himself from an unarmed, wounded person charging him by unloading his service weapon into him, while at the same time Brown has no right to defend himself from being shot by an over-aggressive police officer by attempting to grab the weapon in question.

Anyone may shoot an unarmed and wounded person in self-defense.
This is blatantly untrue of unarmed and wounded people that are in no way even close to being in physical contact with you or any sort of weapon, unless said person is caught breaking and entering into your property unannounced. (And even then, only in Texas and... some other states, forgot which). Otherwise, you need to have very good reason to believe that they can and will kill, seriously (permanently) injure, rob, or rape you or someone else otherwise. You also need to not have any other reliable, non-lethal way of preventing said actions, if you're a police officer (except in Missouri), because the concept of "excessive force" should in theory apply to them. Fundamentally, arguing that to attack somebody with one empty hand constitutes use of deadly force, (and should therefore be responded to with deadly force), requires a whole lot of grasping at straws. You have as yet failed to sell me on that Wilson needed to use his gun in that situation, even for the sake of avoiding minor to serious injury, given that you've yet failed to address the inconvenient matter of the three other, non-lethal alternatives on his person at the time.

As to it all being okay because Wilson was trying to "stop" instead of "arrest" Brown, well... naw. He pulled a gun on Brown and shouted at him to get on the ground. Stop playing with semantics. In any case, policemen may use deadly force to neutralize a target, without attempting to effect an arrest, only under very drastic and previously-outlined circumstances, which simply do not include "coming at me with a bloody stump and a fist."

*Assault with a deadly weapon.
 
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