Tamir Rice

[Lumpy]

So, if you haven't heard about this yet, Tamir Rice was a 12 year old boy from Cleveland, Ohio who was shot and killed by police.

The police department said they received phone calls about a "juvenile" pointing a "probably fake" gun at passerby's in a park. They said when officers arrived, Tamir reached for the gun in his waistband. In less than 3 seconds from exiting the vehicle, Officer Loehmann fired two shots, hitting Rice once in the torso. The gun did turn out to only be an air-soft, but the orange tip indicating as such had been removed. Tamir died the next day.

The department said that the 911 dispatcher did not mention that the gun was "probably fake" when contacting the officers. They also claim that the officers issued an order for Rice to put his hands up. The officer that shot Tamir had been deemed unfit for duty by another department for emotional instability.

The family's lawyer, Benjamin Crump, known for his involvement in the Zimmerman and Brown trials, is calling for laws prohibiting air-soft guns as a response. The mother said he didn't own the illegally modified air-soft, and most likely got it from a friend. The family is looking for convictions for both officers at the scene.

So what are your thoughts on this one?

Surveillance video
Photo of the air-soft (1911 replica)
Fox article
CNN article
Article on Loehmann's emotional instability

 

[Lumpy]

Whoops! I almost forgot! He was also black. That matters.

 

[Tirin]

If the surveillance footage is real-time, the passenger looks to have shot him within two seconds of the car stopping. I also can't really understand why they pulled up so close to him if they were worried about him being armed.

Personally, I think the department's trying to cover its ass by saying that this kid was told to put his hands up, or the officer punctuated his order with a bullet. Either way, it merits an investigation and possibly legal action against the officer in question.

 

[Requiem]

Yeah, I saw the video, it's pretty cut and dry. They didn't even stop to investigate or see what was up, they just pulled up and shot the kid. Cop killed an innocent, he should be held accountable for his actions. Easy peasy, unfortunately. Should never have happened, but what's done is done. :/

 

[The Hound]

I think it's really going to depend on exactly what the dispatcher told the cops, because there's a big difference between a teen is brandishing a fake gun at people and a young disorderly man is brandishing a gun at people. That being said, yea it's really odd how close they pulled up and how quickly they began firing but the young man definitely looks like he went to pull his gun out.

 

[Easy]

He's not only 12 years old, but looks exactly like he's only 12 years old. I don't think it's even fair to refer to him as "the young man."

 

[Lumpy]

He's not only 12 years old, but looks exactly like he's only 12 years old. I don't think it's even fair to refer to him as "the young man."

To be fair, that cop only had about two seconds to determine that before he opened fire. Besides, why would age matter? Is it his age that makes what happened unjust?

I might as well also point out that the officer that shot immediately radioed that he shot a "black male, maybe 20."

Yeah, I saw the video, it's pretty cut and dry. They didn't even stop to investigate or see what was up, they just pulled up and shot the kid. Cop killed an innocent, he should be held accountable for his actions. Easy peasy, unfortunately. Should never have happened, but what's done is done. :/

If it's this simple, why did you remove the part about him reaching for his waistband? Is it still just as simple with that part added in?

I think it's really going to depend on exactly what the dispatcher told the cops, because there's a big difference between a teen is brandishing a fake gun at people and a young disorderly man is brandishing a gun at people. That being said, yea it's really odd how close they pulled up and how quickly they began firing but the young man definitely looks like he went to pull his gun out.

Their claim is that the dispatcher disregarded the "probably fake" statement. The caller referenced his age once saying he's "probably a juvenile". He also ended the call by saying "I don't know if it's real or not, you know?" in regards to the gun.

911 Call

 

[Easy]

To be fair, that cop only had about two seconds to determine that before he opened fire. Besides, why would age matter? Is it his age that makes what happened unjust?

I might as well also point out that the officer that shot immediately radioed that he shot a "black male, maybe 20."

At point-blank range (and we have pretty indisputable evidence that point-blank range is exactly what we're talking about here), two seconds is far more than enough to recognize they were dealing with a small child, and to act accordingly.

Unless the low-quality, grainy video is missing out on a whole lot of hardcore stubble on the victim's chin, it's pretty obvious that the departed was just a child. No chance that excuse could fly with a white kid, which is exactly why people keep pointing out that he was black.

 

[Lumpy]

Keep in mind Tamir was 5'7", over 190 lbs, and had one of those earflap hats on. You may be right that his race made a difference in how old he appeared though. It also doesn't seem unreasonable to think that the officer's attention was pulled more towards Tamir's action in his waistband in that 2 seconds.

Why do you think his age is an important factor here though?

 

[Colonel Thunder]

White cops shooting unarmed black people sure has been a theme recently. I wonder if the media has picked up on that.

 

[Requiem]

I didn't "remove" it, it just didn't really factor in for me. Had they not driven up so closely and shot the kid within seconds of getting out of the car, then him pulling the toy gun out of his waistband would have been more of a factor. As things stand now, yeah, it is pretty much this simple. If by being that close to the kid they felt they were in harm's way, they could have just, you know, not driven that close to him. They could have checked the situation out for at least more than three seconds and determine the nature of the whole situation.

They didn't do that. They pulled up and shot the kid. If it had been three minutes and the whole situation was exactly the same, then there would be some merit, however small, for the police to act in the way they did here. As it stands though, they acted poorly, beyond poorly, and an innocent kid is dead for no reason.

 

[Deleted member 13]

Not really a shocker.

Law enforcement tends to attract a certain personality type. Namely, power-tripping trigger-happy adrenaline junkies. Not saying all cops are like that, but there's certainly far more than there should be.

 

[Lumpy]

“Due to this dangerous loss of composure during live range training and his inability to manage this personal stress, I do not believe Ptl Loehmann shows the maturity needed to work in our employment,”
He teared up during firearms training. I don't think that description fits him. He'd have probably handled the situation better if it did.

 

[Danny]

This is why I'm glad england doesn't have guns.

 

[Chlegyr]

Yet another instance of Islamist-Liberal-Communo-Nazi-Democrat-Obama-Worshippers attacking the time honored tradition of Police Brutality against minorities in the United States.

Thank God we still have brave and God Fearing white men like Loehmann that aren't afraid of things like "accountability" and "due process".

Another Terrorist down.

 

[Lumpy]

You have a pretty good grasp on American politics.

 

[Null Hypothesis]

One thing to point out is that air soft guns are generally made as replicas of real guns with functioning slides and magazines. With the orange tip removed it would look exactly like a real make and model gun.

Kid should have been more careful playing around with a real looking fake gun. Neighbors should have verified if the gun was indeed a threat before calling it in. Cops should have pulled in farther back and taken more time to asses the situation.

 

[Lumpy]

The guy that called it in did the right thing. He left it up to the cops to verify, which is part of their job.

 

[Tirin]

I've gotta agree that it's the cops job to verify whether or not the gun's real, as opposed to the neighbor's. Doesn't really make much sense to risk getting shot and killed instead of calling in to say "Hey, police, there's a situation that you might need to deal with". I know I'm not stupid enough to take a chance like that with my own life.

 

[Requiem]

Yeah, and I personally don't think you can blame the kid for not being "careful." He wasn't running around aiming it at people on the street and while the orange tip was missing, that alone should be evidence enough that the cops are the ones at fault here. Yes, they need to treat threats as real until they are proven not to be, but they drove up as close as they did without even yelling at the kid to put the gun down. I don't want to start any sort of biological argument or anything, but isn't it a bodily imperative to need to defend yourself if you feel threatened? The kid reached for the gun in his waistband, probably to use it as a club or something because all he probably heard or saw was a car pulling up on him and then he was dead.

The blame lies entirely on the cops for making the mistakes they made. They drove up too closely, too quickly, without verification of the gun actually being real, and then shot the kid. None of that can be blamed on the neighbor or the kid himself. Yeah, maybe he shouldn't have had a toy gun with the orange tip removed, but kids do it all of the time. I know because I was one of those kids, me and my brothers and our friends were those kids. If cops ran up on us and shot us without asking what was up, the blame would still be on the cops for doing what they did.