Ended Shadow's League of Legends Mafia: Season II - GAME OVER (Anti-Town Victory)

[Easy]

...if you get bored, would you mind overviewing why the last two are scummy? I've definitely done those before.

i) Less of a big deal, but unhelpful at best. Other players might take each others' word on how you've played in the past, but they'll never trust yours, but they will think it's weird that you brought it up. In this case, Andy's behavior seemed a little different to me in this game compared to last game, but I couldn't at all point to why. Him spontaneously claiming otherwise just tells me, if anything, that he's been paying attention to making sure it looks the same.

ii) Downright unhelpful. If there's a bus driver or doctor in the game, he's probably already put a fair amount of thought into who he or she should target. Unless somebody blurts that name out for the whole thread to see, in which case now your doctor has to wonder whether the scum didn't change targets just because of it.

>quotes are actually quotes

Why the fuck would you think Pally quoting you was the only reason I knew you'd edited your post, and why the fuck would you think editing Pally's post afterwards would fix it?

 

[Shadow]

*sigh*

Didn't think this was necessary, but I've made a minor amendment to the rules:

The Ten Eleven Commandments of Shadow's Mafia Games

• Do not piss off the GM.
• Do not argue with the GM.
• Do not be a jackass.
• Do not talk after death.*
• Do not quote PM’s when roleclaiming.
• Do not self-lynch.
• Do not talk about the game outside of the game thread.*
• Do not play against your win condition.
• Do not claim that another player is your scumbuddy.
• Do not edit posts
• Do not edit other people's posts

* (Unless otherwise specified)

Any infraction of these rules will be punished in a way that I deem the least disruptive to the game. These punishments can be, but are not limited to, modkill/replacement/blacklisting from future games.

I have zero tolerance for violations of these rules

Tirin, this is your first and only warning. The only reason that I'm not modkilling you right now is because Pally's original post was a joke and nothing he said was of any relevance to the game.

Do not do it again. Next time, you will be modkilled.

 

[Tirin]

srs bsns

 

[Jeroth]

Real talk - I had a lot to drink tonight. I'll review this all tomorrow.

 

[Pally]

I'm really mad because I'm really funny and now not as many people will know how funny I am.

 

[Colonel Thunder]

I'm really mad because I'm really funny and now not as many people will know how funny I am.

I know how you feel bro.

 

[Tirin]

I'm really mad because I'm really funny and now not as many people will know how funny I am.

That's rough, buddy.

 

[Jeroth]

Real talk - I had a lot to drink tonight. I'll review this all tomorrow.

All right. After getting coffee and water, I've been reading over the thread which progressed rapidly tonight.

Unlynch Tolvan

I'm disappointed that he's mostly slipped through the cracks and hasn't really been looking into anything. He's mostly been lurking and being defended by Easy/Andy/Ro. I wish that he was more active, but for now, there are more suspicious players.

The entire Andy/Tirin issue is definitely something we need to look into. He went from defensive to aggressive to pulling back after criticisms. It seems like he's trying to fit the mold of being a townie. Meanwhile, Tirin has been bouncing from target-to-target. Originally, I thought that Tirin was a neutral-role akin to an executioner where he had to lynch a specific target each day and Tolvan was his target, but he pulled away from him.

I agree with Whitetiger that a Tirin, Andy and Tolvan lynch would yield the most information for us. Right now, Andy has defended Tolvan, attacked Tirin, then pulled back and hasn't said much.

FoS Andy

I want to hear what @AndyM03 has to say to defend himself since he hasn't said much since he unlynched Tirin.

 

[Tirin]

Targeting two people, the first of which was at random and the second of which was pretty damn justified is hardly scummy. What I think is more scummy is that you're suggesting as such while arriving at pretty similar conclusions - though Andy flipping scum would exonerate you, giving me even more reason to want him lynched.

 

[Jeroth]

Targeting two people, the first of which was at random and the second of which was pretty damn justified is hardly scummy. What I think is more scummy is that you're suggesting as such while arriving at pretty similar conclusions - though Andy flipping scum would exonerate you, giving me even more reason to want him lynched.

Tirin. When did I say that was scummy in my post? The first part was talking about Andy trying to fit the mold of a town and the second part was my original thoughts about you having an executioner role, but that idea was dispelled with you switching to Andy.

 

[Whitetiger]

As has been said, we'd get a fair amount of information from lynching Tolvan, Tirin, or Andy because pretty much all of the serious discussion we have had all day has been centered around them.

However, as much as I know it is taboo and every person hates when it's brought up, I will broach the subject of No Lynching. I brought this up during shadow's last league game as well I believe. In a role madness game if we are going to lynch a townie what will likely happen is a role claim and then us turning towards someone else, who will then also role claim. If we just ignore their role claim and lynch them anyway, there's a good chance we just took a town power role out of the game, because EVERY town is a power role. Not to mention we also give mafia one more level towards their ultimates because they killed a town. By no lynching we avoid outing or killing any of our power roles on day when our chances of hitting town are higher than they'll likely ever be.

I don't actually plan on pushing hard for a no lynch but I'd like everyone to be informed that in a game such as this, it isn't as terrible as it usually is, especially on day 1. As stealthy said here,

Spoiler

Let's say we lynch Tolvan, and we look at Easy and Andy (and Ro3 and myself now, since we're also against it). What do they say? The lynch was random, even for a Day 1 lynch, and they weren't gonna waste the day on a quick baseless lynch. That defense is pretty fucking legit. Certainly more than "I was okay with risking telegraphing my allegiance to my scumbuddy right away" line of thinking that the accusation would require. Yeah, you can run the whole "well that could very well be what they want you to think, that's why they thought they could get away with it", but that's WIFOM bullshit. Even with a scumflip, I don't see how we could distinguish scumbuddy from 'townie with legitimate objections' in this scenario.

even what information we do get out of a lynch today may not actually help us that much.

And yes, we've all heard the arguments against no lynching 1,000 times here, I'm just saying that the pros may outweigh the cons in this specific and unusual instance. We won't be wasting the discussion we had by not lynching a polarizing person or something, because the constructive discussion we have had today could be very useful to a cop tomorrow or perhaps a vigi within the group of 3.

 

[Tirin]

Tirin. When did I say that was scummy in my post? The first part was talking about Andy trying to fit the mold of a town and the second part was my original thoughts about you having an executioner role, but that idea was dispelled with you switching to Andy.

You certainly implied it with the wording "bouncing from target-to-target", and I think you're bullshitting if you deny as such.

Whitetiger, I don't see any reason to no lynch. Lynching someone I view as suspicious and whose death would provide beneficial information for the town is obviously a much better play.

 

[Jeroth]

You certainly implied it with the wording "bouncing from target-to-target", and I think you're bullshitting if you deny as such.

I never implied it, but go ahead and think I'm bullshitting you. I was explaining that I originally thought you were a potential executioner that had the goal of lynching Tolvan, but you bouncing over to Andy dispelled that idea. Thus the "bouncing from target-to-target" line.

I'm still waiting to hear @AndyM03 's defense, but I also want to hear more from the lurkers: @TimTh33nchant3r @Tolvan @Shizno

 

[Whitetiger]

Wow I didn't even know Shizno was in this game. I should have called him out as well.

 

[Steal Thy Kill]

No Lynching is really dumb and useless in most any situation. This is one of them.

 

[AndyM03]

I want to hear what @AndyM03 has to say to defend himself since he hasn't said much since he unlynched Tirin.

I dunno mate, I was just trying to be helpful but all I wanna do now is be quiet. I just got really annoyed at the whole situation pretty quickly. I guess I was a bit all over the place but I tried to explain myself each time. Defending Tolvan, again, ugh, was just me following a hunch. If you think following a hunch to kill someone is better then a random kill, then by inverse you should believe following a hunch of who a townie is should be an equally fine move for the time being. That just makes a lot of sense to me and I felt like Tirin never really argued back against this logic or had anything to say about it besides calling us idiots. He kept ignoring things I had said previously -

I wouldn't stick my neck out for Tolvan right now if I had anything to do with him.

In a game with 15 people, I've needlessly stuck my neck out for someone I reckon is town,

You didn't think you were sticking your neck out at the time, and scum would have every reason to defend someone their scumbuddies 'cause duh.

Note the times these were posted. Rather then pointing out the inconsistency I just got annoyed because it seemed like he would continue to ignore arguments or comments as he did here.

He's no more "exceptionally" unlikely to be scum than anyone else, and your incorrect assertion to that effect makes me suspicious of you, as well. Either way, the chance at recovering a lot of very useful data from a lynch is a lot better than the chance of recovering fucking nothing, so unless you can provide a reasonable alternative I doubt I'm going to change my vote.

I still believe Easy and I had every right to follow a probably town hunch just as much as you have to follow any possible mafia hunch. Neither of us said that Tolvan being townie was set in stone and the really harsh retorts just felt unhelpful and ignoring of anything we were saying. What I mean by harsh retorts are the uses of certainties in a game where really, Tirin knows just as much as any of us and is going on hunches and assertions, yet continues to speak as though his beliefs are 100%. As a town, it's infuriating to read that he's not even hiding behind the use of exceptional probabilities or anything, on day 1 of all things.

Regardless of the Tolvan situation, I find it hard to believe Tirin to be scum based on this interaction. I don't think mafia, even Tirin, would try to spearhead a lynch in this way on day 1.

Part of my argument was that Tirin could be using his brash personality to get away with leading a lynch vote. And the original Tolvan lynch wasn't even that aggressive, it got the day off to a good start, but it's just as possible it could have gotten the mafia a quick kill. I never admitted Tirin to being a bad lynch, I said I was uncertain of it, because it's day 1. I said he's just as possible to flip mafia, as anyone. Although the Lynch keyword makes me look more aggressive, I get that, I understand, I was less trying to start controversy (though I knew it would and I knew it would make me look bad) I just wanted the day to resume past the Tolvan debate because like I said, it was really aggravating me for whatever reason.

Oh it's not a good lynch, but Day 1 lynches are never perfect. I was torn between that, Whitetiger, and no lynch at all. I thought I'd take some charge and get some discussion going.

When I said this, I said it with the assumption that any lynch at that point wouldn't be considered a good lynch today. It was not me 'admitting' I believe Tirin is more town then any of us. I could have said any name, but Tirin was the one that would get the most discussion going. Lynching a lurker felt wrong as much as I wanted to call them out on it and nobody else really felt right.

 

[AndyM03]

No Lynching is really dumb and useless in most any situation. This is one of them.

If we lynch we'll likely kill a town and we are guaranteed to have Mafia ults on day 3. That being said, I'm unsure of how powerful they could be and since they'll get them on day 4 anyway maybe it's better we try and kill one, despite the slim odds. I'm sure dealing with 2/3 (There's 3 mafia, yeah? Or 4? Do we know?) ults would be better then dealing with the full amount later.

 

[Steal Thy Kill]

It's 3 or 4 mafia.

 

[AndyM03]

Well I definitely reckon a lynch is probably worth it.
Probably.
But it's good Whitetiger made us aware of the consequences.

 

[Tirin]

I still believe Easy and I had every right to follow a probably town hunch just as much as you have to follow any possible mafia hunch. Neither of us said that Tolvan being townie was set in stone and the really harsh retorts just felt unhelpful and ignoring of anything we were saying. What I mean by harsh retorts are the uses of certainties in a game where really, Tirin knows just as much as any of us and is going on hunches and assertions, yet continues to speak as though his beliefs are 100%. As a town, it's infuriating to read that he's not even hiding behind the use of exceptional probabilities or anything, on day 1 of all things.

I ignored what you said at first because just about any lynch we make is arbitrary on day 1 with no information (which I acknowledged); however, discussion between players gives us better bases to decide on lynches by providing more information. Leaping to Tolvan's defense (if he turns up scum) would lend credence to the theory that you are scum; but you also attempted to get me lynched - making me more able to believe that you're scum yourself. As a bonus, if you flip scum, since you were defending Tolvan (which, as scum, you would have little reason to do; it can establish cover, but is obviously risky), it would provide a hint that Tolvan is scum.

Basically, there's chance in this game, but it's prettymuch inherent - choosing to ignore that the lynched person will probably be town if we look at the statistics is obviously the sensible thing to do, because that's true until the mafia win the game. What we can do to win is use the information we have to try and lynch people who are doing scummy things or, if no such people exist, lynch people whose death will give us a lot of information, and let us make a more informed decision on lynches later. In my opinion, you fit both criteria.