Ended Lotus's Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann Mafia [Beastman Victory]
A real man never dies, even when he's killed!
It's just Rayeon and Rondait left and then we have to kill whomever Stealthy rezes. Then the game will die.
A real man never dies, even when he's killed!
This game is pretty much at a close.
Regardless of who Stealthy revives, even using Death Powers, the humans can't beat out the Beastmen Generals due to a few miscalculations and poor mechanics on my part.
Here's a link to the roles with starting stats.
Congrats to the Beastmen for preventing humanity from rising to power again.
I had ATT/DEF work similarly to Power/Toughness in MTG. Speed purely determined order of abilites. Attacks always went last.
Day attacks did 100% ATT in damage, and ignored defense.
Regardless of who Stealthy revives, even using Death Powers, the humans can't beat out the Beastmen Generals due to a few miscalculations and poor mechanics on my part.
Here's a link to the roles with starting stats.
Congrats to the Beastmen for preventing humanity from rising to power again.
I had ATT/DEF work similarly to Power/Toughness in MTG. Speed purely determined order of abilites. Attacks always went last.
Day attacks did 100% ATT in damage, and ignored defense.
So the main offending balance problems with this game were:
For anyone interested in taking this idea further, some solutions:
- We had pretty much complete control over the night phase. We had a witch who could redirect two people per night and a roleblocker, meaning we could effectively nullify one person's action and use two other people's actions to our direct advantage. We made tag heal us, we made town roles attack each other at night, and we made sure that anybody we wanted to kill was going to unprotected.
- 40% of the players were beastmen and we had 100% communication, able to give unlimited messages day and night and we often spent 40+ messages just discussing optimal night actions. We had better stats than town and were nearly invincible once we had tag as a pocket healer
- Human lynch power was too weak and beastman lynch power was too strong. Not only did it make it super obvious who the beastmen were, it meant the 6 of us basically had as much day power as town did, which is a design flaw because we can openly challenge town during the day unless town spec hard into power, which apparently nobody did.
- I had a role that inherited the abilities of any beastman who died, making me a backup for every beastman power role. This meant as long as I was alive, we were still just as powerful at night with 6 beastmen as we would have been with 2 beastmen.
- I also had an alternate win condition in which I could win if I lived to the end of the game. If all the beastmen were dead, I could win with the humans, if the humans were all dead, I could win with the beastmen. This meant that if I decided to be a total jackass, I could have betrayed the beastmen on day 1, told town literally everything the beastmen discussed the entire game, and revealed all of their roles, stats, and abilities. I didn't do this because it would have been incredibly unfun.
For anyone interested in taking this idea further, some solutions:
- Either make mafia no more than 33% of the playerbase, or allow a player to be lynched if 66%-75% of the players lynch them, regardless of power and LP.
- Give town double lynch power so mafia aren't as obvious and town has more sway during day phases.
- Limit night chat to a few messages between mafia per night so they can't plan every single mechanically optimal play every night
- Limit day phases to longer than 24 hours so more discussion can be had between players with busy schedules. Even if night chat is allowed, tradition and unclear night action order dissuade players from divulging much (a cop won't want to roleclaim at night if they suspect doctor has already confirmed his night action)
- Defense is a really really strong stat for mafia to have. Because town won't have coordinated multi-attacks in one night, defense gives way more bang for it's buck than LP. Mafia should either have little to no defense, or the stat should be scrapped.
What? No. Probability doesn't matter to Team Dai-Gurren. Obviously Stealthy could'a revived me, and I could'a shitposted us another few hundred spiral points before the day phase ended, with the remaining humans playing along, propelling us into stunning and beautiful victory. I declare this call to be invalid.
I was also hoping to see a bullshit town victory.
That being said, the system itself, while an interesting idea and something to try, seemed rather pointless. Dunno about everyone else, but it didn't add anything to the game from my perspective other than a few extra hurdles to jump through.
That being said, the system itself, while an interesting idea and something to try, seemed rather pointless. Dunno about everyone else, but it didn't add anything to the game from my perspective other than a few extra hurdles to jump through.
I would've rezzed Req because my wincon was based on Simon living, not Kamina. Doesn't matter; we were fucked anyhow because massive imbalance.
Like, idk what the starting stats were for the beastmen, or for people who weren't pig moles, but it seemed that humanity just lacked raw firepower and the spiral power output wasn't nearly enough, nor consistent enough, to help us out. And beyond the experimental bits, this game was still pretty imbalanced. Too many Beastmen, too powerful Beastmen, insufficiently powerful town, apparently overpowered maf, and the balancing mechanic simply failed to do so. I mean, we were supposed to be able to overcome the Beastmen after a few cycles with Spiral Power. But I specced hard into LP and Healing Factor and wound up being only on par with a Beastman attack (assuming that one of them attacked me that night), and then our Spiral Power ran out because our only reliable means of gaining SP was by Easy going hard in the paint with the roleplaying. We had a single point of failure, which is soooo not okay.
Also, Day Phases were waaaaaay too short. We do not have the consistent activity to do a proper day phase in 24 hours. Hell, with Andy involved we're fighting time zones too. It would've been nice to have lynched Tim on Day 2 instead of Day 3. I mean, we had to wait a whole extra phase to lynch a guy who had been outted so hard he wasn't even pretending anymore.
Credit for the experimentation, certainly gave me things to think about if I try to do something based on power levels in DBZA or a stat-based criteria for the Showdowns in Xiaolin Showdown, but it seemed pretty flawed.
What Andy said
Did I add this up wrong, or did the mafia literally have more combined lynch power than the town did from Day 1?
You can't really have a game where the scum can out-lynch and out-nightkill town from the very beginning while also having a huge proportion of the total bodies and unlimited communication. The information advantage itself is already so much a big deal, that a vanilla game is considered balanced when scum ratio is about 1:3. By comparison, you increased the ratio, buffed them with a sweet ability advantage, increased their lynching ability to an effective majority, and then nerfed the town further with town-independent win conditions on some pro-town roles (Nia, Boota) and, (good God), a Yoko role whose only effect is apparently the ability to accidentally kill her fellow townies.
The setup was such that even if we went into the game already knowing who all of the scum were, we'd still have to outplay their night actions in order to win. (Which wouldn't be really feasible, since they could coordinate theirs secretly and we could only do so publicly.) And while we theoretically could keep getting incrementally stronger if we somehow managed to last enough days, it would take a whole bunch of them just to bring us to a point where any one human became roughly the equivalent, in total power, of just one of the beastmen. Of course, we'd almost definitely be outnumbered by then.
Even then, that would rely almost entirely on our shitposting Jester (me) staying alive that whole time, which would be difficult enough to manage just on the face of it. The 'Cool Hand Kamina' approach that I took apparently actually worked as intended because it was me, (but likely wouldn't have for most other players), because my reputation let me double-bluff them into thinking it must have been a trap. Unfortunately, I was also apparently a double-wide target given that attacks on Simon redirected to me instead, (which wasn't even in either of the role descriptions), which cut the life expectancy of the role to below even that of a normal Jester. Town really relied on Kamina to have even a bit of a shot at winning, but the practical limit on what he could accomplish before dying (especially with 24h Day phase limits) was just much too low for that to pan out.
With all of that said? I thought it was still hella fun, and the mechanics themselves were pretty great. The variable stats and effects adding some extra layers to the strategy? Excellent. Starting out with relatively strong scum roles and increasingly powerful town roles? Nice. It needs heavy town buffs and also scum nerfs to be a legitimate contest, but I really do hope to see this kind of setup again in some form.
You can't really have a game where the scum can out-lynch and out-nightkill town from the very beginning while also having a huge proportion of the total bodies and unlimited communication. The information advantage itself is already so much a big deal, that a vanilla game is considered balanced when scum ratio is about 1:3. By comparison, you increased the ratio, buffed them with a sweet ability advantage, increased their lynching ability to an effective majority, and then nerfed the town further with town-independent win conditions on some pro-town roles (Nia, Boota) and, (good God), a Yoko role whose only effect is apparently the ability to accidentally kill her fellow townies.
The setup was such that even if we went into the game already knowing who all of the scum were, we'd still have to outplay their night actions in order to win. (Which wouldn't be really feasible, since they could coordinate theirs secretly and we could only do so publicly.) And while we theoretically could keep getting incrementally stronger if we somehow managed to last enough days, it would take a whole bunch of them just to bring us to a point where any one human became roughly the equivalent, in total power, of just one of the beastmen. Of course, we'd almost definitely be outnumbered by then.
Even then, that would rely almost entirely on our shitposting Jester (me) staying alive that whole time, which would be difficult enough to manage just on the face of it. The 'Cool Hand Kamina' approach that I took apparently actually worked as intended because it was me, (but likely wouldn't have for most other players), because my reputation let me double-bluff them into thinking it must have been a trap. Unfortunately, I was also apparently a double-wide target given that attacks on Simon redirected to me instead, (which wasn't even in either of the role descriptions), which cut the life expectancy of the role to below even that of a normal Jester. Town really relied on Kamina to have even a bit of a shot at winning, but the practical limit on what he could accomplish before dying (especially with 24h Day phase limits) was just much too low for that to pan out.
With all of that said? I thought it was still hella fun, and the mechanics themselves were pretty great. The variable stats and effects adding some extra layers to the strategy? Excellent. Starting out with relatively strong scum roles and increasingly powerful town roles? Nice. It needs heavy town buffs and also scum nerfs to be a legitimate contest, but I really do hope to see this kind of setup again in some form.
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You know, if not for that the town probably would have gained enough spiral power to whoop us 1v1. We had no idea that targeting Req would hit you, and we intentionally left you alone for the late-game out of fear of what would happen if you died. Plus CP decided to engage with you nearly every time you posted, lol.