Star Wars: The Force Awakens

Requiem

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Exactly what Tag said. The problem is that Poe and Phasma are supposed to be big characters, on the level of importance that Kylo and Hux have, or Rey and Finn. Phasma I could understand just being another Boba Fett who doesn't actually have any importance to the story, in regards to the OT, but that's not how she was marketed or even how she was used in the movie. We get a tense scene with her in the beginning when she tells Finn to put his helmet back on. The movie tells us she's going to be a threat of some sort. Then, when it comes time for Finn to face the stormtroopers with Luke's Saber, he fights a no name trooper. Sure, there's books that explain that trooper and give him background, but the film failed to give us that, so he's useless in that regard. Phasma could have easily been the one to fight Finn and it would have made perfect sense. Instead, she's never used except for bit roles.

To further my point on her importance, as set up by the movie, she has the rank of Captain, her armor is different from other troopers, she's the first female stormtrooper that we know of, and she's got a damn cape thing that she wears. She's made to be an important character, especially in her design. You should care that she's not used well in the movie because the whole movie is suggesting she's meant to be used.

I loved this movie and it'll probably be one of my favorites until the next two come out and perhaps take its place, but I can still acknowledge it's faults. Phasma was meant to be used more, but it's like they forgot about her in the script writing sessions and that's terrible. She did nothing that a stormtrooper couldn't do for the movie. There were no scenes of hers that a stormtrooper couldn't have been used in. Hell, the fight with Finn I mentioned, the one she should have been in, was in fact fought by a stormtrooper. She's supposed to be the female stormtrooper equivalent of Boba Fett in terms of her design and her use in the film, but for the life of me I can't see why. She's important, but never ever used effectively. That's bad.

As for Poe, he was more of a plot device than he was a character. He initiated the delivery of the map piece to the resistance, he deus ex machina saves Finn and the others at Maz's castle, and he blows up Starkiller Base because someone had to do it. The movie set up why all of this stuff had to be done by Poe, certainly, but the writing for each of these plot points were poorly done if they meant to use Poe in any substantial way as a character and not just a device. It's clear that he's meant to be an important character, much like Phasma, but he suffers the same lack of use as Phasma as well. They just sorta forgot about him. He pushes the story along because it needs to be pushed along. As a character though, he needs a lot more development.

Those are my reasons as to why they needed more screen time. Without their screen time, they don't seem as important to the plot as they should be, or at least as important as the movie suggests they're meant to be.
 

13thforsworn

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I definitely see why people are pissed about Phasma. Apparently they hyped up her character a lot, only to have her be a non-factor. I never payed attention to it, so that's why I don't really care. But I acknowledge that they could have used her in a lot better way. I think on a Dudesoup (Funhaus AKA the old Inside Gaming guys that were picked up by Rooster Teeth after they left Machinima) podcast they said that it would have been cool if Finn had faced off with Phasma, since she had to take responsibility for his mutiny as his commanding officer. It was a personal failure that she had to rectify by beating him into the dust. That didn't happen though.

I still think Poe's part in the movie was fine, but you reminded me of how much I loved the scene between Finn and anti-lightsaber stormtrooper guy. It wasn't "we're fighting because we're enemies", it was "we're fighting because you're a FUCKING TRAITOR who betrayed his brothers-in-arms". That guy was mega pissed and took it personally, and his desire to kill Finn for his transgression was made quite clear through the ferocity with which he fought. Really great scene in my opinion.
 

Tag_Ross

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I still think Poe's part in the movie was fine, but you reminded me of how much I loved the scene between Finn and anti-lightsaber stormtrooper guy. It wasn't "we're fighting because we're enemies", it was "we're fighting because you're a FUCKING TRAITOR who betrayed his brothers-in-arms". That guy was mega pissed and took it personally, and his desire to kill Finn for his transgression was made quite clear through the ferocity with which he fought. Really great scene in my opinion.
That character wasn't just some unnamed stormtrooper, that was Nines, who you can read about in the book Star Wars Before the Awakening, who was one member in the four man fireteam led by Finn.

So it wasn't just, "you're a traitor who betrayed the first order"
 

Requiem

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But that's the point, from a movie standpoint, he's not Nines, he's just some rando stormtrooper who has beef with Finn because he left the Order. There's nothing giving that specific stormtrooper any weight as an individual, but as a face of the whole order. But then that can be done better by Phasma who is given some semblance of individuality, but is never used proper.

So you see the conundrum they've created. Nines is cool, but never introduced as Nines so he feels flat in the movie. Phasma is cool, but she's never used. Finn's betrayal of the order is complete during that fight, but the person he fights is just... not substantial.
 

Tag_Ross

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Oh, I still think phasma would have been a better person to battle Finn. I just happen to have picked up the book.
 

Requiem

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I just wish they were more cohesive as a structure when building this new franchise. I don't think they've done a bad job, but there's lots of places they could improve.
 

AndyM03

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Exactly what Tag said. The problem is that Poe and Phasma are supposed to be big characters, on the level of importance that Kylo and Hux have, or Rey and Finn. Phasma I could understand just being another Boba Fett who doesn't actually have any importance to the story, in regards to the OT, but that's not how she was marketed or even how she was used in the movie. We get a tense scene with her in the beginning when she tells Finn to put his helmet back on. The movie tells us she's going to be a threat of some sort.
I think a big part of the marketing was purposefully to misdirect the audience. The posters have Finn with the lightsaber, the first trailer I remembered ended with Finn facing Kylo, Finn this and that etc. And then Rei turns out to be the Jedi. Which was awesome.
Despite being a shot for shot re make of A New Hope / RoTJ, the movie kept surprising you with those sorts of things. I think Phasma is just that, another misdirection. Looking at it as a trilogy at an early stage isn't really the best way to judge a movie, but i'll consider the wrong righted if we see Phasma do some cool stuff later. Overall I was fine with her not being used that much. She felt intimidating when she needed to be at the opening of the film, characterizing the First Order as rough and brutal.

Then, when it comes time for Finn to face the stormtroopers with Luke's Saber, he fights a no name trooper.
I liked this fight the most because it reminded us of Finns past and relationships within the first order. Reminded us that Storm Troopers are people, a theme I hope reoccurs in the next films. Perhaps with desertions started by Finn rallying them to see the errors in their ways.


As for Poe, he was more of a plot device than he was a character. He initiated the delivery of the map piece to the resistance, he deus ex machina saves Finn and the others at Maz's castle, and he blows up Starkiller Base because someone had to do it. The movie set up why all of this stuff had to be done by Poe, certainly, but the writing for each of these plot points were poorly done if they meant to use Poe in any substantial way as a character and not just a device. It's clear that he's meant to be an important character, much like Phasma, but he suffers the same lack of use as Phasma as well. They just sorta forgot about him. He pushes the story along because it needs to be pushed along. As a character though, he needs a lot more development.
Star wars as a whole has always been strongest in it's characters and how those characters interact within the world we love. The actual plot pulling things together isn't what makes the movies great, although a good plot is obviously a great thing to have. Po's escape with Finn had me bursting with excitement, and seeing him again later in the film make me feel like I was seeing a long lost friend. The fact that the film achieved this when such little time was devoted to him was impressive to me. The actors chemistry was enough, and I didn't feel like I needed to see more of Poe, rather I just wanted it. I think it's important to keep us wanting a little. I didn't really see the rescue as a deus ex machina, unless i'm forgetting something.

The movie introduced a lot of developments that i'm sure we'll see in the next films. I know that's not really much of a counter point, a movie is a movie and should be able to stand on it's own even if it is a trilogy, but I was happy. I didn't feel betrayed, I thought it was just another misdirection and the pay off will be later.
 

13thforsworn

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So might have walked into a screening of Star Wars VII after watching Rooster Teeth's feature film Lazer Team. Still really fucking good. Rey is still really fucking hot.
 

Easy

Right Honorable Justice
Member
The first thing that I question is how the First Order came to power after Luke destroyed the Empire. There seemed to be no period in between where good governance was established. Where did the Firs9t Order come from? How were they able to take control of the remnants of the Empire? How were they allowed to do this with Rebel Alliance just having achieved victory? Questions to be answered in the next movies, hopefully.
Well, it all started with the campaign slogan "Make the galaxy great again..."

(Seriously though, what Tirin said. You can't take out an entire nation just by blowing up one military base and a couple of their top dudes.)
Basically, don't refer to the old republic unless you're willing to really talk. We bleed star wars here, chump.
Fixed.
 
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Easy

Right Honorable Justice
Member
That's much better.
Fixed again.

Back to the topic at hand, I gotta say that I seriously disagree with the people saying Phasma should have had a bigger role. When it comes down to it, people only expected that she'd be a prominent antagonist in the first place because she was introduced wearing an exceptionally cool-looking suit of armor, and I much prefer to see that trope disassembled than played straight myself.

But beyond that, her inferior ability was really the most logical outcome of a particular flaw in what's clearly the First Order's preferred and promoted workplace environment - namely, everybody's expected to follow their superior's orders to the letter, no questions asked, no exceptions, regardless of whether or not they signed up for that in the first place. Clearly, therefore, having a higher rank isn't going to correlate well to being more of a badass. It more likely means that said superior officer got that rank by being a hardcore stickler for the rules and being a total dick to your subordinates, which Phasma clearly and totally is. (Remember how enthusiastic Finn got when he told her: "I'm in charge now, Phasma! I'm in charge!" The man was clearly dealing with a bunch of pent-up resentment at his boss there.)

I also and especially disagree with the suggestion that it wasn't awesome to have some random stormtrooper lay the smackdown all over Finn instead of Phasma, because that's another idea that stems from the same expectation that people with super-special cool shiny armor suits should be breathtaking badasses, and regular stormtroopers should just be dying like total mooks all the time. I love that the movie doesn't play to that, and I wholeheartedly maintain that it's much more faithful to the canon this way. Stormtroopers are supposed to be super-elite lifelong career warriors - out of all of them that Finn goes up against, how unlikely is it that he wouldn't ever encounter one tougher than he is? Yes, Finn was a stormtrooper too, and yes, he was considered to have good performance even for a stormtrooper, but it's not like he was the most elite, baddest mofo to ever walk out of the Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy. Hell, nobody seems to have thought twice about the time when he got knocked flat on his ass by that one smaller, weaker, significantly whiter little scavenger girl with a stick. Even that baby-ass Kylo Ren beats him at melee combat. Having a then-unnamed stormtrooper punish his treachery like that just isn't surprising at all.
I highly doubt we've seen the last of Phasma. I'm holding out hope that she has a bigger part to play in the next two movies.
That would be pretty surprising, though. Personally, I assumed she was dead when they decided to throw her in the trash compactor, because that came across to me as a "let's have fun killing her by crushing her to death in garbage." (Which is a little messed up, sure, but that's CG for you I guess.) And then she wasn't one of the few people to be extracted - either from said garbage-crusher, or from the base in general - before that whole planet she was on collapsed. Ruling: I'll be disappointed if she shows up again, because barring some kind of bullshit ret-con she's gotta be deader than disco.
 

Requiem

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It's been confirmed that Phasma is returning in the next movie.

To clarify my points, I don't disagree that Stormtroopers should get their time to shine as badass soldiers. They really are meant to be a force to be feared as the backbone of the Empire and now the First Order.

When it comes to the random Stormtrooper and Phasma thing, my problem was that the movie itself sets Phasma up to be important and necessary to the plot in some manner, most likely as character development for Finn, but beyond the garbage compactor scene, she didn't do anything to really develop Finn. She didn't provide anything to the movie. I wanted/want them to either use her or not have her at all because her role in the movie isn't doing anything at all. She's just there.

Which leads into the random Stormtrooper again. He can totally be a badass and fight Finn and nearly beat him/actually beat him. He can do all that he did in the movie and be a compelling character, absolutely, I want that! But the movie itself is written in such a way that the potential of setting him up as an actual character as opposed to a faceless, yet badass soldier is wasted. He cares so deeply about Finn being a traitor because he was basically Finn's Stormtrooper brother. He took it personally. There's a book about it. We as the movie watching audience don't know that though, not from the movie itself however, so all of that character development that happens off screen is basically null and void.

Basically, the writers set Phasma up as being important and then never using her, while making Stormtroopers badass again, but not giving them any character. They could have easily made the random Stormtrooper a character, given him more lines, made him more important, and cut Phasma out entirely or even have them oust her as a failure for not doing anything but following the rules. All of your suggestions could have been implemented and would have made the movie stronger, but instead they only went half and half on both ideas. We get awesome Stormtroopers, but a lackluster boss character who is meant to be awesome, but is never really utilized in any way within the script.

The movie was poorly written in this aspect.
 

Easy

Right Honorable Justice
Member
I disagree that Phasma was set up to be a big deal. My reading the whole time was that she was just a petty officer in shiny armor. Her not being a big deal in the end made perfect sense to me, to the point where I feel it'd be really weird for top brass to actually go out of their way to rescue her. I mean, the full extent of her authority was being able to boss around a squad of stormtroopers.
 

Requiem

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My read of it is the fact that she has a name, a different, unique uniform from other troopers, she's a woman when we've seen few if any female clone/stormtroopers throughout the franchise, and she's coming back in the sequel even though she obviously should have died on Starkiller Base. There was also the lead up to the film where the character and the actress, Gwendoline Christie, were heavily featured. The collector's movie theater cup I have has her on it, the helmet that is.

Which is why I have such a problem because everything you're saying I agree with. She's just a special stormtrooper with shiny armor, she wasn't a big deal at all despite her set up suggesting so, and she apparently survived the explosion of Starkiller Base, despite her sphere of influence pretty much amounting only to a small group of stormtroopers. Why save her?

She was set up to be a big deal, but then wasn't a big deal at all and they're proceeding with things as though she was important enough to save off screen through poor writing. They want her around enough to bring her back for the sequel so obviously they have plans for her which makes no sense because we're agreeing on all of the reasons why she's not a big deal at all.

You disagree that she was set up as a big deal, but more or less we agree on everything. She either should have been used more or not at all. Her role in the movie doesn't set up the stormtroopers as being badass, her lack of a presence during the battle at Maz's Castle does that. It gives them a chance to show how cool they are. The movie could have been exactly the same without Phasma. I don't think throwing her in the trash compactor really provided any sort of benefit to the characters, it was just a funny one off scene and, more specifically, it's where her part in the movie ends. We never see her again. She doesn't have any part in the final scenes except for shutting off the shields, which is important, certainly, but again, any stormtrooper could have filled that role.

Considering they're bringing her back and that feels strange to you shows that the writing wasn't done well. They don't know what they're doing with Phasma and now the new director has to come in and figure her out.
 

Null Hypothesis

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Donor III
she was just a petty officer in shiny armor.
Captain in "Captain Phasma" is her rank not her first name.

It is unclear which ranking system the First Order uses the Army's or the Navy's. While the rank of Captain differs depending on which system you use, we can still assume she is still kind of a big deal.
 

Easy

Right Honorable Justice
Member
Well, I do agree that there's inconsistency. Seems like our only conflict is on what our personal expectations of her in the beginning were, so I suppose that concludes everything.
Captain in "Captain Phasma" is her rank not her first name.

It is unclear which ranking system the First Order uses the Army's or the Navy's. While the rank of Captain differs depending on which system you use, we can still assume she is still kind of a big deal.
Yeah, a step above Lieutenant. Lower-ranking officers than her probably do exist. Can't argue with you there.
 

Tag_Ross

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He can totally be a badass and fight Finn and nearly beat him/actually beat him. He can do all that he did in the movie and be a compelling character, absolutely, I want that! But the movie itself is written in such a way that the potential of setting him up as an actual character as opposed to a faceless, yet badass soldier is wasted. He cares so deeply about Finn being a traitor because he was basically Finn's Stormtrooper brother. He took it personally. There's a book about it. We as the movie watching audience don't know that though, not from the movie itself however, so all of that character development that happens off screen is basically null and void.
Hey, they could potentially write him into the next film, exorcising with the popularity that faceless/nameless(in the films) stormtrooper #73 has amassed, and the lackluster character that is captain phasma.
 
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