Ended Jeroth's Overwatch Mafia [ Town Victory!]

[AndyM03]

Oh and in response to your red flags on TC, totally get what you mean, but that summary is super useful for this chaotic day imo.

 

[Colonel Thunder]

I also realize that my own summary depicts me as classic scum

 

[coolpool2]

I feel like I should be talking more given how verbose everyone else is in this game. Sometimes I just feel like it's hard to keep up with everyone and fully comprehend what everyone is saying at each other.

I've more or less summarized my thoughts in previous posts. I feel like Req and TC haven't really said enough to get a good handle on them. I'm a bit suspicious of Andy.

 

[AndyM03]

I feel like I should be talking more given how verbose everyone else is in this game. Sometimes I just feel like it's hard to keep up with everyone and fully comprehend what everyone is saying at each other.

I've more or less summarized my thoughts in previous posts. I feel like Req and TC haven't really said enough to get a good handle on them. I'm a bit suspicious of Andy.

Just shoot from the hip mate. I haven't agreed with everything Anatron's said but I love how much he's been posting. Just reply to things even if they're not about you, speak your mind, I find it a far more fun way to play.

 

[Requiem]

Er, just to say it even though I thought we were done with the Tirin Rage/Andy fiasco, I don't put what you said, Andy, on the same level of Tirin's rage. Tirin gets angry, he does it better than any of us. It's one of his character traits, you might say.

Whether it was justified or not, what you said set off Tirin and made him angry. That doesn't mean what you said is as bad as what Tirin has been saying in terms of vitriol, just that I've personally been someone who's had to face the brunt of his anger in the past and honestly, it's not out of the ordinary for him to do this.

Personally, I wanna drop it, but I keep bringing it up since the conversation doesn't seem to be ending. Yeah, I agree, it would be good if Tirin didn't add in, as you call it, the poison as he has in some of his posts, but he feels justified in doing so. I'm not saying that's alright, just explaining why it's happening at all.

But to bring this back onto the game as a whole, Andy, you've said you think Tirin isn't playing badly, despite the poison. If that's the case, you should just drop the whole thing, mostly to save yourself the trouble and have your doctor thank you for lowering your blood pressure (metaphor).

Lets focus on getting our votes in and discussing the next move we all need to make, not the meta discussion which is just side tracking things.

 

[coolpool2]

Well It's been a long day so I don't know if I have the energy to reread everything and write up something long right now.

Maybe it's because I'm so used to Tirin being Tirin that his behaviour didn't seem odd at all.

 

[Tirin]

Are you serious? You responded to my joke with this


This is when my rant started, not before. I made a cheeky light hearted joke, which apparently Req thinks is on the same level as the above.

I think I totally agree with TC. Tirin and Easy's posts against eachother have been nothing short of weird. It seems they're both building enough cred so that if either one of them dies, preferably by one killing the other, the survivor is "confirmed town" for the rest of the game. To extend an olive branch to the players that have put up with my ranting, (though I would have preferred a bit more understanding but whatever),
Unlynch Tirin,
Lynch Easy.

Even if the above theory is true I guess I would say Easy's been 'weirder' then Tirin. And at least that clears emotional bias from the table, for now.

This is the problem: I am not exhibiting emotional bias toward you. I don't give a fuck. I said you were scummy in that post because you did something that you accused me of (that is, happily putting a second lynch on somebody with little reason). The problem is that, where I did it entirely as a joke (and obviously so), you justified to yourself - and to everybody - that this was a "scummy" action, even though in the process you were trying to speed the game along by focusing me with a lynch, as Easy had suggested.

And, as I said: you've totally ignored that line of reasoning, as has Easy earlier. You've done it here, in fact. You haven't said anything regarding my posts, or this accusation, other than my tone is aggressive and I use mean words, neither of which I will deny and neither of which is relevant to whether I'm town or scum or whether that accusation is valid. You haven't defended your own hypocritical action, gamewise, and apparently don't have any interest in acknowledging it happened. I can't let that pass, and it is the crux of why I'm saying that you and Easy are playing badly; you're both completely ignoring a seemingly-valid point that, to me, screams "Andy is scum", along with the lynches building on you because of it and your inconsistency.

By the way, this "Tirin or Easy" logic is dumb. I think Easy has a significant chance of being scum owing to his weird-ass plays, but I wouldn't call myself confirmed town if he was scum (or even confirm him scum if he lynched me). Either way, TC, that two-sides-and-one-or-both-of-us-are-scum reasoning is dumb as hell and makes me suspicious of him.

Like I said, I still think Andy is our best lynch today. Nobody's done a decent job at convincing me otherwise so far, and I don't wanna switch onto Easy owing to the still-present risk of him being town who's just playing like a tier-one jankster today.

 

[AndyM03]

as a joke (and obviously so).

You can't even say sorry and move on, for fucks sake.
Lynch Andy

 

[Tirin]

Oh, look, it's the "ignore all those valid things because I'm upset" move again. I'm not gonna apologize for that first joke lynch, which is all that post even fucking references, 'cause it doesn't merit it, and I don't think anyone could reasonably think so. Do I have to spoiler out anything that isn't me begging for your forgiveness?

 

[Colonel Thunder]

Andy is town. There's no way he'd ruin the entire game over butthurt if he was scum in a game this small. He has to be relatively disposable town or else he wouldn't be letting feelings influence him to the point of attempted suicide.

Do Not. Hammer him.

I want people's thoughts on Tirin and Easy scum duo. Read their earlier fights and tell me it doesn't smell funny.

 

[Tirin]

Andy is town. There's no way he'd ruin the entire game over butthurt if he was scum in a game this small. He has to be relatively disposable town or else he wouldn't be letting feelings influence him to the point of attempted suicide.

Do Not. Hammer him.

Could be. Could also be that he's confident that he's going to get lynched either way, and so decided to make a last-ditch effort to try and save himself. This would have the added bonus of making a scumbuddy who hammered him appear to be town - or, rather, generally muddying the issue of their alignment if he turns up scum. I'm also not sure whether his own lynch against himself actually counts, seeing as he didn't unlynch and self-lynching is often disallowed - but it's not mentioned in the rules, so who knows?

I want people's thoughts on Tirin and Easy scum duo. Read their earlier fights and tell me it doesn't smell funny.

It doesn't, and calling out duos is a hard strategy to justify to begin with. As much as I said Easy and Andy may be a scum duo earlier (and maintain that both have been scummy) - I certainly wouldn't move on to instantly lynching the other on day 2, if one flipped scum. You can't autoconfirm people in a group based on how one of them flips, that's idiotic. The degree to which you're trying to push this narrative strikes me as more disturbing than almost anything so far, and is actually making me reconsider my lynch on Andy.

 

[Requiem]

I'm not gonna hammer. Andy, mate, come on, don't throw the game away. I'm sorry this is bothering you so much and it wouldn't even be hard for Tirin to give you what you want by apologizing so we can all move on, but on your end of things, please don't let this stop you from playing the game properly. Mafia only just got its most recent Renaissance, let's give it a chance.

We're better than this, it's just a game. You two need to handle this so that it doesn't affect the actual flow of the game. That's not fair to anyone, neither to yourselves or to Jeroth who put work into this. Come on, please.

 

[Easy]

EDIT: Yo Easy did you just try to confirm us both?

Well, yes... but with the info that came in since then I'd say I was only clearly confirming myself (because I knew what, specifically, wasn't in the Town role descriptions, that I couldn't reasonably have known to predict otherwise), and most likely confirming you. At that time, your specifically calling out Widowmaker as a glass cannon role led me to assume that you actually knew the characters, and particularly that Widow was a Talon hero. So, you must not have been told that you were on Team Talon in your role PM - which I think it's fairly safe to bet that the Mafia were - and so you made a blunder that a Team Talon member never would have. If you don't know which heroes are Talon and which aren't in the first place, then that's the kind of blunder you could make in any case - although since you've apparently looked some hero data up to work your theories with, it's still something you'd likely be inclined to look for. In short: still an exoneration, but much more Lite than the original assumption had it.

Since then I got the win condition piece of my role PM added, and now I know there is a fair chance of serial killer presence despite the small game size - probably an independently-aligned Australian or a sociopath like Symmetra. For all I know, you could be that instead. I still take pleasure in the accomplishment, because despite repeatedly telling myself that you always do this to my scumdar when you shouldn't, I was really starting to convince myself that you just wouldn't stop going rabid on me because you just couldn't resist the sight of Easy daykill; now I feel pretty good about the odds that I was right to second-guess that impression.

It appears to have gone almost entirely awry as far as getting players to trust you, and also probably made you a more attractive target to scum - a risk that I'm sure you would have been aware of going in. Unless you just didn't care, since it wasn't present. From the perspective of a self-interested town player, strongly implying that you're one of the most important roles in the game is a janky move at best.

I'd have been aware of the risks going in either way, of course. That's a truth I don't mind sharing at all, since it was obvious to begin with anyway.

Oh, sorry - I was the second uncounterable kill you made as scum, my mistake. I tuned outta that game after it was made even more obvious that you were scum and I became completely unable to do anything about it.

Yeah...

I still can hardly believe that shit actually worked.

So which is it? I'm playing super suspiciously because I've gotten "traumatized", by which you mean "I resent the implication that I should be everybody's focus in any given phase, and don't see it as productive toward the town", or I've been a credit to it for getting Firedemon to post and stirring up activity at the risk of negative attention towards me? I don't give a shit if somebody cops me, I expect that kinda garbage anyway - and, in this case, I look forward to the needless vindication. You haven't been reacting particularly well to accusations levelled towards you and your thus-far-ineffective playstyle, though, just implying that people are stupid for making those conclusions or outright ignoring them.

Is that right?

Huh.

As to the first part of this paragraph: the lynch and "focus" call on you had clearly just as little, if not straight-up less actual weight than your lynch on Andy, took place at effectively the same time, and you took the explanation just as poorly if not worse. Hell, you even kept on ranting about how I was attacking you or whatever for the next several pages - have you tried going back to look for examples?

Of course, you instead implied it without outright stating it for... what reason, exactly? Plausible deniability? 'cause that's reading as a condemnation of Firedemon showing up whether you like it or not, and since then he's made a few reasonable posts.

I didn't ask you to really shittily interpret what was literally nothing more than a defense of your playstyle. Players showing up is a good thing, that's why getting them to show up is a good thing.

Of note is the poor logic of "scum obviously loves to stick in the shadows, so if you stick in the shadows you's probably scum" - but, as shown last game, that's not necessarily true at all. I played to center stage (and, for that matter, TC and Andy were both very active as well) and we ran away with the game, and I'm more than confident that a skilled enough player could do so here.

Of note is that I never said that one who sticks in the shadows is probably scum. But what I did say, (from memory, without looking back over), amounts to that there [would have been] probably somebody in this game, that was scum, who would. The noisier the conflict in the thread, the more easily-identifiable anybody in the sidelines would be. I needed the best possible odds I could get of being the guy who caught a scumbag D1 - an ambitious aspiration to say the least - far more so than usual, and so extreme measures became viable options so long as they could even slightly improve my chances of hitting successfully.

I struckthrough that middle bit because that's an outright non-argument. "Andy and I aren't scumbuddies (and thus he's not scum), because I'm town"? Myself and every other player has no way of knowing that - and, frankly, I'm not trying to convince you at this stage, because you've made it your mission to have the game go your way and I'm not about that. Cool that you misintepreted my reasoning and tried to point right back at me in this post, though.

Yeah-fucking-right. You asked me about my analysis of the Andy lynch, remember? You didn't ask me to come up with one for you. My analysis included the certain knowledge that fully half of your argument wasn't even worth my consideration. The rest of the argument was better than nothing, sure - still made Andy one of the better choices, all considered, - but it wasn't by a wide enough margin that I'd give up on the kind of play that I've put this much effort into building just for that extra modicum of security.

By the way, I think that Andy's scum more because of his quote below, and the validity of my response, coupled with his reaction to it, or lack thereof:

That point, right there, was screened by Andy under the "too aggressive" blanket, and when in a later post I explained that I still think Andy is scummy for that reason, he proceeded to quote the first seven words of that post and entirely ignore the rest. You largely ignored that post, too - along with Anatron's point that Andy's "talking instead of analyzing" is something that he's doing now and has a history of doing as scum. Personally, I think that reflects poorly on both of you, and I'm more inclined to say it's because you're scum instead of being really, really bad town players.

I also spent like three whole pages on ignoring you, *ahem*,
'taking what was clearly a baiting lynch as a big deal because it was followed by another round of baiting, and then see absolutely no problem with jumping aboard an unfounded lynch on me 'cause you feel like waving your dick around,"
-before I finally felt that you were acting more reactionary than normal, in the circumstances.

I'm not going to say "Easy, I'm with you". That'd be stupid information to reveal to scum whether it's a yes or a no, and at present I have no damning reason to be against you, while you haven't given me anything good enough to say - or to even think - you're cleared as a townie. For all your talk about me being self-absorbed, you're looking around this game and begging to have your dick sucked.

That's the conundrum; gotta get people to do what I want them to, without actually letting anyone know what that does or why. Also, I've gotta know if they're gonna do it without being told as much outright.

You see why it'd be worthless for me to go along with someone else's lynch on Andy? Being suspected is a lot worse than being trusted, but being not greatly suspected nor particularly well-trusted is a whole lot worse than not knowing exactly where I stand with either.

[Something that looks a lot like someone trying hard to contribute, while taking care not to accidentally do something like that in the process.]

FoS this guy the hardest, though. I'd say more if I wasn't on the verge of passing out in my clothes, but I am now, but this is exactly the kinda shit he pulled in LoL Mafia (good job on that still though, by the way, even had me fooled into almost killing you if the rest of the scum hadn't argued against it in the end).

 

[Tirin]

Yeah, a great way to keep the game flowing as normal would be to keep posting in the thread to play the game - like I've been doing - instead of backhandedly calling me out in it while offering nothing to the game, or being smart enough to use PMs instead of posting in the thread for something that you claim shouldn't interrupt the game to begin with. Nice one.

 

[Anatronman]

Easy, it’s not unreasonable to ask for more information the way I did. Your hyperbole keeps mixing in to your main points and it makes it very difficult to justify Night actions beyond “trust me, I’m Easy” (which would still be more reasoning than you’ve actually provided). I poked out a bit with the health comment, sure, but that’s only because you keep trying to have it both ways.

And at this point I’ve read Tirin’s posts more than anyone else’s, I think we all know what they say. It would be nice if there was room for more discussion than rehashing page 2.

Cool, I think you’ve written that exact thing every two pages. It doesn’t look good.

Something’s starting to bother me about Dunsparce. Maybe he’s just making the emotionally intelligent decision to not get involved in what currently looks kind of like a Mafia game. Maybe he’s suddenly a player that agrees with me and posts every couple pages. That sounds great.

TC, calling yourself out isn’t a defense.

Andy, I’m not sure what you’ve apologized for. TC, I don’t know why Andy is confirmed. Easy, why is your only analysis of Andy’s play that he isn’t your scum buddy even though he’s the fourth most active player?

 

[coolpool2]

Yeah, I'll try to write something of substance today.

 

[Tirin]

Well, yes... but with the info that came in since then I'd say I was only clearly confirming myself (because I knew what, specifically, wasn't in the Town role descriptions, that I couldn't reasonably have known to predict otherwise), and most likely confirming you. At that time, your specifically calling out Widowmaker as a glass cannon role led me to assume that you actually knew the characters, and particularly that Widow was a Talon hero. So, you must not have been told that you were on Team Talon in your role PM - which I think it's fairly safe to bet that the Mafia were - and so you made a blunder that a Team Talon member never would have. If you don't know which heroes are Talon and which aren't in the first place, then that's the kind of blunder you could make in any case - although since you've apparently looked some hero data up to work your theories with, it's still something you'd likely be inclined to look for. In short: still an exoneration, but much more Lite than the original assumption had it.

Ahahaha, what the fuck am I reading right now? "I clearly confirmed myself (bullshit in any case) by knowing what wasn't in the town role descriptions"? Riyant didn't specify which faction(s) or player(s) he missed sending to for exactly this reason - it'd make the game a preconfirmation shitshow, and in any case the scum victory condition would be extraordinarily obvious when they were all Talon agents in the same PM, which is standard mafia practice. Fuck off with this.

Since then I got the win condition piece of my role PM added, and now I know there is a fair chance of serial killer presence despite the small game size - probably an independently-aligned Australian or a sociopath like Symmetra. For all I know, you could be that instead. I still take pleasure in the accomplishment, because despite repeatedly telling myself that you always do this to my scumdar when you shouldn't, I was really starting to convince myself that you just wouldn't stop going rabid on me because you just couldn't resist the sight of Easy daykill; now I feel pretty good about the odds that I was right to second-guess that impression.

This could easily be bullshit, and while I won't rule out the possibility of a serial killer it does nothing to confirm you as town or scum one way or the other. All factions want to be the last standing, after all, and your victory condition implicitly plays to that.

I didn't ask you to really shittily interpret what was literally nothing more than a defense of your playstyle. Players showing up is a good thing, that's why getting them to show up is a good thing.

First: I don't give a fuck if you asked for me to do anything. Nobody does, you're not the captain of this mafia ship because we don't have one, and unless you can reveal your role I suggest you get offa that high horse. Secondly, as I mentioned: all you've done this game is throw out half-guesses and try to discredit people for performing analysis contrary to what you think, then retreat back to doing dick-all - even while pressing that you're our most likely bet for getting a day one lynch on scum. Maybe so... if only 'cause at this rate I'd argue you're a better lynch than Andy, and not only for actually being lynchable.

Of note is that I never said that one who sticks in the shadows is probably scum. But what I did say, (from memory, without looking back over), amounts to that there [would have been] probably somebody in this game, that was scum, who would. The noisier the conflict in the thread, the more easily-identifiable anybody in the sidelines would be. I needed the best possible odds I could get of being the guy who caught a scumbag D1 - an ambitious aspiration to say the least - far more so than usual, and so extreme measures became viable options so long as they could even slightly improve my chances of hitting successfully.

Of course, you only applied that same logic, my bad. Your extreme measures have so far done effectively nothing; they didn't even especially succeed in drawing out FD and TC.

Yeah-fucking-right. You asked me about my analysis of the Andy lynch, remember? You didn't ask me to come up with one for you. My analysis included the certain knowledge that fully half of your argument wasn't even worth my consideration. The rest of the argument was better than nothing, sure - still made Andy one of the better choices, all considered, - but it wasn't by a wide enough margin that I'd give up on the kind of play that I've put this much effort into building just for that extra modicum of security.

Your analysis was apparently quite poor, then, seeing as you're retracting it right now. Big surprise; it completely declined to offer your own thoughts on him, instead concentrating on saying that mine were unreasonable shit.

You see why it'd be worthless for me to go along with someone else's lynch on Andy? Being suspected is a lot worse than being trusted, but being not greatly suspected nor particularly well-trusted is a whole lot worse than not knowing exactly where I stand with either.

Then count yourself lucky, 'cause right now you're pretty clearly suspected. Andy's drama has made him effectively fucking unlynchable by anyone this phase, scum or town, and how quickly TC jumped on him to defend not lynching him while trying to put the screws on us makes me doubly suspicious of them both.

FoS this guy the hardest, though. I'd say more if I wasn't on the verge of passing out in my clothes, but I am now, but this is exactly the kinda shit he pulled in LoL Mafia (good job on that still though, by the way, even had me fooled into almost killing you if the rest of the scum hadn't argued against it in the end).

Well, at least we can agree on something.

My own personal suspects list is as follows, with higher up being more sus (that works in-"tier" as well, folks):
-TC, who's trying to stir dissent between two "factions" with poorly-reasoned arguments, not taking into account that there is no reason Easy and I would act this way if we were both scum when we could easily secure lynches more handily without putting as much suspicion on ourselves. For fuck's sake, man, we were scum together last game - and while I put suspicion on you when necessary, I would never posit such a convoluted strategy. The idea that Easy and I on the same side as scum would end up as a chaotic goddamn mess like this is ridiculous, and you haven't supported it worth dick.
-Easy/Andy, for reasons elaborated on in this and many other posts.
-Req, who hasn't made any focus on analysis whatsoever in favor of trying to make this the feelsgood-we're-all-on-the-same-team game
-Coolpool, FD, and Dunsparce, all of whom have said little and the former two of which haven't lynched anyone in a serious capacity
-Anatron, who has been remarkably consistent and at least done his best to point out flaws in people's arguments

Based on this, and the fact that Andy is now virtually unlynchable today, I'm gonna unlynch and Lynch TC. The Easy/Tirin duo conspiracy theory is retarded, which I hope I've made clear enough to everybody. Honestly, TC... if the game had progressed this way without you bringing up something that stupid and contentious, I'd be lynching Easy right now.

 

[Easy]

Easy, it’s not unreasonable to ask for more information the way I did. Your hyperbole keeps mixing in to your main points and it makes it very difficult to justify Night actions beyond “trust me, I’m Easy” (which would still be more reasoning than you’ve actually provided). I poked out a bit with the health comment, sure, but that’s only because you keep trying to have it both ways.

Yeah, I know. You're not supposed to know what I'm up to - if you could potentially work it out, then scum could definitely work it out. They'd have all the same info you had, a vested interest into shutting it down, and more importantly, not have to deal with the handicap of wondering whether I'm even Town or not to begin with. (This would be ridiculously risky play to be pulling if I were, quite possibly the riskiest I've ever attempted barring maybe Day Kill Mafia, but I have to admit that I really wouldn't be above it.)

Something’s starting to bother me about Dunsparce. Maybe he’s just making the emotionally intelligent decision to not get involved in what currently looks kind of like a Mafia game. Maybe he’s suddenly a player that agrees with me and posts every couple pages. That sounds great.

It's a good time to mention that I've been suspicious of Dunsparce since he first tried to push the 'Easy or Tirin' narrative, well before it was cool TC and certainly before something like that was even otherwise a consideration beyond 'distant future possibility. (Also, he's kept shy of controversy at every point along this whole ever-shifting debacle as well.) Then TC shows up and puts a lot of effort into doing absolutely nothing apart from promoting that particular idea... coincidence? Eh, I'd give it about 50-50. Definitely worth notice.

Easy, why is your only analysis of Andy’s play that he isn’t your scum buddy even though he’s the fourth most active player?

No, he's not, unless you're solely going by post count and/or text count, because as far as I could see the majority of his posting has been about Tirin as an individual, and not the actual game itself. His early plays struck me as amateurish scumhunting, and I don't usually point that kind of thing out unless it either gets too extreme, or I need to build or counter a case for lynching someone or the other. Discourages other people from speaking up if they feel like they're going to be criticized for anything less than absolutely perfect play, and it helps the scum know more about what I'm thinking and why, which I'd rather avoid.

EDIT: the one thing that has caught my particular interest about Andy, though, is that he went from (effectively) backing me all game, to lynching me, as soon as I finally made it clear that he wasn't actually buying any favor points with me. Could be just a mood swing at the time, though. Who knows.

 

[Anatronman]

amateurish scumhunting, and I don't usually point that kind of thing out unless it either gets too extreme, or I need to build or counter a case for lynching someone or the other. Discourages other people from speaking up if they feel like they're going to be criticized for anything less than absolutely perfect play

Not sure if this is a compliment or you're still trying to trigger me.

 

[Easy]

Ahahaha, what the fuck am I reading right now? "I clearly confirmed myself (bullshit in any case) by knowing what wasn't in the town role descriptions"? Riyant didn't specify which faction(s) or player(s) he missed sending to for exactly this reason - it'd make the game a preconfirmation shitshow, and in any case the scum victory condition would be extraordinarily obvious when they were all Talon agents in the same PM, which is standard mafia practice. Fuck off with this.

Work all day, on a phone again, so normally I'd work on a full set of respones as I catch breaks and submit when it's finished (or accidentally halfway through and leave it half-finished for hours, like yesterday), but this is important enough misleading bullshit that I wanna go ahead and get it out of the way real quick before some serious damage gets done: who gives a shit about any of what you just said, do you not realize that even after correction of the PM it still remains a fact that Talon isn't mentioned by name anywhere in the Townie PM's, (lucky break for me on that one), that it would still be as impossible as ever for me to make that call with any kind of certainty at all unless I had one of those PM's, and that no matter how obvious anything and everything about their own roles might be for the scum from their own PM's the presence or absence of direct, named references to themselves in other factions' PM's is not such a thing and it's ridiculous to act as if it could be? Or did you not actually know that Talon wasn't directly referenced in the pro-Town win condition, either, and that it wasn't 'the presence of a win condition' that I was referring to as a very specific detail that was absent from the Townie PM's (for all I know, most of us already had the win condition part to begin with)?