FD Rants about Climate Change because he lives in Texas

Firedemon

Well-Known Member
Member
I've had this rant slowly building up for around two months and have magically been denied the opportunity to spread it among the Climate Change deniers I work with. I have realized some of you may find it useful/interesting/insightful or some other bullshit, so I thought I might post it. Here goes...

Let's talk about temperature. How does a planet become the temperature it is at? This is determined by the difference between how quickly the planet's sun provides it energy and how quickly the planet loses that energy. So, let's take Mercury for example. We know how hot the sun is, because we have satellites monitoring it. Doing math based on how much light hits a satellite's detector, we can calculate how much light (energy) the sun is putting out over a particular area at a certain distance from the sun. This should be a fairly intuitive, non-controversial fact of physics. We can also determine this from Earth doing some much more complicated math to account for the atmosphere reducing the intensity of the light. In other words, it isn't worth the trouble to do it this way. Now, if you deny the existence of satellites, you can go look up this other method and come back with acceptance that we know how hot the sun is. I have no intention of explaining that. Now, as my earlier statement implied, the energy output of the sun is based on the area it is shining on, and the distance from the sun. But, lastly, we must consider how much of that light is reflected by the planet's surface. This property is called a planet's "albedo". We will come back to this, so remember it for a minute.

Conversely, how does a planet cool? Long ago, you likely learned in school that there are three ways for heat to transfer. Conduction, convection, and radiation. Conduction is when two solids touch and heat transfers from hot to cold, like electricity transfers from positive to negative. Convection is the same, except it deals with liquids and gases. Radiation however is different. Radiant heat is emitted constantly by all objects in the form of light, just typically not light we can see. This is actually how thermal imaging works, it picks up the infrared light that makes up the bulk of the radiant heat we have on our planet and our solar system. As an object gets hotter, its radiant heat can eventually reach the visible spectrum, which is how incandescent light bulbs work (which is also why they're terrible and no one uses them anymore, but that's another story). With these three methods of heat transfer in mind, which does a planet use to cool? Planets are not touching anything else, so they cannot lose heat from conduction or convection. This leaves radiation. The sole method of a planet cooling is radiant heat.*

*This paragraph actually explains everything you need to know to move onto how an atmosphere affects a planet's temperature.

So, we now know that a planet's temperature is based on how quickly it gains heat and how quickly it loses it. This means we can describe a planet's temperature as whatever temperature makes these two things equal (in equilibrium, more technically). I will not attempt to explain the mathematics in detail, just know that this is math astronomers have been doing for a very long time, and that the concept is fairly intuitive if you stop and think about it. Because how quickly a planet radiates heat is based on its temperature (Higher temperature means faster loss of heat) there will eventually be a point at which the heating from the sun equals the cooling from radiant heat. Astronomers have used this information to calculate the expected average surface temperatures of Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, and many other planets. For those four, they are expected to be 160 degrees C, -42 degrees C, -19 degrees C, and -63 degrees C respectively. You may have noticed that Earth and Venus are horrendously wrong. Mercury and Mars however are pretty close. "Ha! Those scientists don't know shit!" some of you are shouting. That's because this calculation left out one more very important factor.

You have probably long been told that an atmosphere is what keeps a planet from being stupidly cold. Mercury and Mars have little to no atmosphere, hence why the expected surface temperature is pretty close. Venus and Earth however have quite substantial atmospheres, especially Venus. This is why they are so much hotter than expected. However, it isn't actually specifically the atmosphere, but what composes that atmosphere. Chemists in both industry and academia make extensive use of an analytical technique called infrared spectroscopy. While there are numerous methods of applying it, essentially a sample of some compound is exposed to infrared light and a detector measures how much of the light shines through and at what wavenumbers. Some compounds absorb far more infrared light than others. In particular, organic (carbon containing) compounds do this, though it is by no means limited to organics.

Infrared spectroscopy theory originated with quantum mechanics, formulated by Schrodinger in the 1920s. After extensive study of its theory and development of proper tools, infrared spectroscopy emerged in the 1960s as a commercially available analytical tool, used to figure out what in the hell it was those chemists were making. This is the big point all of this has been culminating to. What I am about to explain, those of you who may be "skeptical" of my point, is a very fundamental piece of science that has been experimentally proven several times over and lays the ground work for a ubiquitous analytical tool that is responsible for huge advancements in the field of chemistry. If you try to deny this, you are in effect saying that every chemist in the world, and nearly every chemical company, and every pharmaceutical company, and countless physicists, are all "in on it" and trying to push the existence of climate change to ruin the petro-chemical industry because that totally makes sense for the petro-chemical industry to ruin itself.

Atoms and molecules all absorb light in several different ways. When they do this, they gain heat and raise in temperature. Of note is "vibrational absorption," which is the type of absorption that makes infrared spectroscopy work. Molecules have a property called a "dipole" which can be thought of kind of like how much a magnet they are. There are two factors that change a dipole, the magnitude of a charge imbalance and how far away from each other on the molecule the equal and opposite charges are. Any molecule that can vibrate in such a way that its dipole will change (Also note that changing from 0, as in no dipole, is still changing the dipole) will have vibrational absorption, which just happens to absorb infrared light. This is also the predominate method by which anything absorbs infrared light. Recall from way back near the beginning of this rant that radiant heat is in the form of infrared light. You see where this is going? Now recall that a planet cools solely through radiant heat. So the reason Earth and Venus are so much hotter than it should be is that they have molecules in their atmosphere that have vibrational absorption.

Finally, after all of this... Let's talk about carbon dioxide, or CO2. CO2 is in the form of a straight line. It's an oxygen atom bonded to a carbon atom bonded to another oxygen atom. These oxygen atoms are the same distance from the carbon atom but in exact opposite directions. The best way to explain what I'm about to talk about without putting you through an actual chemistry course, is to think of molecules as being balanced on a point. If a molecule can be balanced while standing on any of it's atoms, it has 0 dipole**. The more imbalanced it is, the bigger the dipole is. So, let's take the straight line that is CO2 and stand it straight up and down on either oxygen atom. Can this be done? Yes, there's nothing sticking out to the sides so it will balance if you do it right. It's just a straight line after all. Let's turn it 90 degrees and balance it on the carbon atom. Will it work? Yes, the two oxygen atoms cancel each other out and it balances. So CO2 has 0 dipole. Now, what if one oxygen atom vibrated? So we stand the CO2 on an oxygen atom straight up and down and it still balances, but when we try to balance it on the carbon atom, one oxygen atom will be closer or further to the carbon than the other. This means that it will be imbalanced and have a dipole. In fact, the dipole will be constantly changing as the oxygen atom vibrates. This means that CO2's dipole can change if an atom begins vibrating, meaning that it has vibrational absorption and can absorb infrared light. Since it absorbs infrared light, it reduces the amount of radiant heat leaving a planet that has CO2 in its atmosphere, like Earth and Venus do, thus reducing the rate that the planet cools and causing the average surface temperature to rise. In fact, Mars actually has a predominately CO2 atmosphere (what little of an atmosphere there is), and that CO2 is why Mars is marginally warmer than it should be.

**This is basically how I got through that portion of freshman chemistry and I've been trying to put my process to words for years.

[general summary for tl;dr]This is also why methane, water, NOx, SOx, and CFCs, among others, are also considered "Greenhouse Gases" and why they do in fact cause a planet to warm. Some might call the process... Global Warming. To summarize, after this massive rant... A planet's temperature is determined heavily by how quickly it dissipates heat through radiant heat. This follows intuitively from the fact that the other two methods of heat transfer will not allow a planet to transfer heat away from itself. Denying that fact is dumb. Radiant heat is how thermal imaging and things like that work, and it happens to be in the infrared spectrum. That's why thermal cameras are called infrared cameras. This is a scientific fact you can witness with your own eyes (ironically). Denying this is dumb. Certain molecules absorb infrared light, which is the basis for a hugely important analytical tool for chemists. Denying this is dumb. We can show both empirically (with an infrared spectrometer***) and theoretically (with... simplified... quantum mechanics or rigorous quantum mechanics) that CO2 absorbs infrared light. Denying this is dumb. Logically, if a planet's atmosphere contains more of a thing that absorbs infrared light (radiant heat) its temperature will increase. Denying this is dumb.[/general summary for tl;dr]

***By the way, I have personally used an infrared spectrometer on numerous occasions and have had to run a background scan each time. The background scan clearly shows the absorption peaks that correlate with CO2, water, and other junk in the air.

Lastly, there is one singular thing you need to accept in order to believe climate change is a thing that is happening. CO2 levels on Earth are rising. How can I prove this? Well, next to no one denies it. All available data says yes, that is a thing that is happening. Fox News, one of the glorious sanctums of climate change denial, admits that CO2 levels on Earth are rising. [bad oversimplification]But, let's say you're insane and don't trust data. Would you say there are a lot of cities, roads, and buildings on Earth? Yes. What do you think covered the ground before those things? Plants, right? And what do plants absorb? CO2. So, would you say there are now fewer plants on Earth? Yes. Now what do our cars emit? CO2, right? (And water, NOx, SOx, CO, and other crap, but let's not go there...) So would you say that if there are fewer plants on Earth to absorb CO2 and there are now cars (among countless other things) to emit CO2, there is in total more CO2 on Earth? Denying that is dumb. You don't need sophisticated data to figure that one out. That also coincidentally lays the ground work for the argument that all of this is caused by humans. I won't go there.[/bad oversimplification] I have left several things open though. I have made no comment on whether or not climate change is necessarily bad (obviously it is at a certain point, but is there a level at which it could potentially be good? I am personally open to such an argument and can see a few ways to make that argument) and I have made no comment on what to do about it. That is what people should be talking about, not whether or not it is happening.


OH MY FUCKING GOD THIS IS LONG AS SHIT AND I SPENT TWO HOURS NON STOP TYPING THIS. I DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW I GOT TO THIS POINT. IT WASN'T THAT LONG IN MY HEAD I SWEAR TO GOD.

But hey, Longest Rant Award 2016. This is getting tl;dr'd so hard and I don't even care.
 
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AndyM03

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Member
People that don't 'believe' in it are dead set dead to me. There's tons of science that they and we don't understand, but scientists are cool with it, and we're all cool believing it. Why take the fight on this issue? Maybe because it's politicized as all hell and corporate interests are aligned to climate change not existing? It's infuriating, but I honestly just try to avoid the topic. Makes it a lot easier to socialize.
 

Ibix

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Now I'm not saying outright that it is man made, but if you pump billions of tons of anything in the air somethings gonna happen.
 

coolpool2

Savage AF
The Original Gangster
I remember learning most of this in grade 10 science and grade 11 chemistry. It feels nice to understand the reasons behind something. I you deny climate change then you're either uninformed or purposely ignoring the facts. It doesn't take a genius to notice the climate is changing.
 

Chickenspleen

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I don't even know why there is an issue about the existence of climate change. If your big argument is that climate change doesn't exist, as it seems to be for many people, your argument can be destroyed by sitting in on a middle school science class.
 

Firedemon

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That is also why, for those of you who didn't tl;dr that massive rant, towards the end where the science becomes less basic I begin to emphasize how large sectors of our economy and our technology are based on these facts. Many people denying this believe in some level of a conspiracy. That's also why I bother to explain the Greenhouse Effect's origin, rather than just cite the Greenhouse Effect. All of the explanatory science is either basic and somewhat intuitive, or incredibly important to other fields in its own right and therefore not possibly something that could have been "made up".
 

Tirin

God-Emperor of Tealkind
Moderator
There's tons of science that they and we don't understand, but scientists are cool with it, and we're all cool believing it. Why take the fight on this issue?
While climate change is a fact, this attitude is stupid as hell. "Scientists said something" doesn't make it true; only shortly before the twentieth century, scientists thought that light had to move through an invisible "ether" that didn't physically interact with anything else in the universe, and that was obviously shown not to be the case.

That aside, while global warming is a pretty large and obvious problem, people have been working on ways to solve the problem for decades, both politically and scientifically. The recent Paris Agreement between basically every single country in the world makes the idea of convincing people of its existence a bit of a non-starter; it's come to the point where nearly every government recognizes the scientific evidence behind it, and individual people have either recognized it in turn or have no interest in evidence to start with.

Given that many nations have a vested interest in not letting global sea levels rise by [x] meters, I personally suspect that a genuine effort to stop (and even start reversal of) climate change will succeed by 2050. If we as a species want something done enough, we can make it happen.
 

13thforsworn

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Where did you even...

How did you...

Also, I literally never noticed the pink lipstick before. That's a nice touch. I miss Bloodmorn and his amazing art.

Seriously, you just had that on hand? I'm a little impressed.
I think he got it from this.



I'll respond to this thread properly later, I have some shit to finish up for school.
 

Easy

Right Honorable Justice
Member
Ironically, most of that setup was for an argument that doesn't actually follow. The conclusion is correct, mind you, but the argument isn't valid because you completely neglected to consider the emission spectrum of your radiator. It happens that solar emission does include plenty of IR radiation, though, so broadly speaking the correlation between increased (atmospheric) CO2 content and higher atmospheric absorbance does hold true, but that weird tangential 'less plants, more CO2, higher temperature' thing in the last paragraph doesn't work out at all.

First, there's UV-Vis absorbance, which plants are great at and which corresponds to higher relative intensity in the sun's overall emission spectrum compared to IR, which is a weird thing to overlook after just having spent such a very large number of words establishing the impact of increased IR absorption. Granted, plants transfer a lot of that captured energy into bond breaking/formation, whereas concrete doesn't, but that's something you should have addressed after deciding to include such a level of detail as to explain the molecular basis of radiative absorbance.

In any case, other issues include: plants exchanging CO2 capture for H2O release, (the latter having higher overall absorbance within the solar emission spectrum); adjustment of overall carbon fixation rate with large-scale agricultural development. It's not unreasonable to assume that the first is not an important factor in climate change, but the latter is fundamental. If you have half the plant matter but five times the growth rate per unit, you're taking in a lot more CO2. If you have twice the cars but each one burns half as much carbon a day, you're not pumping any more CO2 out.

In other words,
So, would you say there are now fewer plants on Earth? Yes. Now what do our cars emit? CO2, right? (And water, NOx, SOx, CO, and other crap, but let's not go there...) So would you say that if there are fewer plants on Earth to absorb CO2 and there are now cars (among countless other things) to emit CO2, there is in total more CO2 on Earth? Denying that is dumb. You don't need sophisticated data to figure that one out.
No, that logic is dumb. You actually would need pretty sophisticated equipment.
 

Tirin

God-Emperor of Tealkind
Moderator
Lastly, the nice thing about science is that it's true regardless of whether or not you believe in it.
No, the nice thing about science is that it's self-correcting; when it's wrong, the inconsistencies in models will eventually be found and something new will arise to try and more accurately reflect reality.

The not-so-nice thing is when people mistakenly believe that science is a completed process, and thus mistake it for fact; even less nice is those people mindlessly using Neil deGrasse Tyson quotes so they can look like they know shit or said anything meaningful.
 

Ibix

Well-Known Member
Member
The not-so-nice thing is when people mistakenly believe that science is a completed process, and thus mistake it for fact; even less nice is those people mindlessly using Neil deGrasse Tyson quotes so they can look like they know shit or said anything meaningful.
"Something about space." - Black science man
 

coolpool2

Savage AF
The Original Gangster
Science has always been wrong about many things throughout history and it will probably continue to be wrong about certain things for a very long time. However, as we move forward we will be able to be slightly less wrong about certain things. By the way who is Neil deGrasse Tyson?
 

Frilzer

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I agree that the climate is changing. It is a thing. The costs and effects of trying to stop it and the fact we don't understand exactly what percentage of human activity is responsible for climate change is why they deny it. Here you get the people who don't believe in climate change are the same people who realize that to essentially go back in time to when putting carbon and etc was pre-industrial age, we would have to sacrifice A LOT. The entire world. Everyone.

That or they are Texans and they are just that dumb.
 

Firedemon

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Member
In other words,

No, that logic is dumb. You actually would need pretty sophisticated equipment.
Fair warning after the fact (because that's a fair warning) I wrote this rather late at night after staring semi-blankly at a journal article on computational chemistry, so some inconsistencies are to be expected. That particular point was the least well developed in previous thoughts, as I was mostly hinging on "Come on, really, you're going to deny THAT?" and was more concerned overall with the more scientific side of "This is an actual phenomenon that exists". Honestly, it was practically an after thought and I probably should have left it out completely. Few people actually do deny the rise of CO2 concentration, so that argument was almost pointless even if it were valid. That is a good point I completely neglected though, plants do have far better absorbance of UV-Vis than concrete and buildings, though you are right again that they convert most of this into chemical energy. That does indeed make the point of any possible increase or decrease in plant population much more complicated. And the often neglected agricultural sector was again neglected by me. I will have to refine or drop that point entirely, it is drastically over simplified. Do you find any notable faults in the overall argument before that though? The solar spectrum seems mostly extraneous, as its impact was presumably accounted for by astronomers in the Earth's albedo and their value of solar intensity used for calculating the expected surface temperature mentioned in paragraph three.

I don't know of any substantial net H2O release by plants by the way, what are you referring to? Aside from H2O being consumed in photosynthesis, plants also typically require copious amounts of additional water in order to transfer what water they do need throughout themselves. Trees are particularly guilty of this.

Also, totally unrelated, but thinking about it I need to refine my "balancing" analogy for dipole moments. I'm seeing some issues with it. It works fine for CO2, but I'm see how it can mislead with some molecules.

Edit: By the way, if anyone was wondering where the hell this came from, it wasn't a conversation with a crazed conspiracy nut. I was writing a paper for a computer science class about a journal article on vibronic spectroscopy in the Journal of Theoretical Chemistry and Computation. Spectroscopy reminded me of this developing rant.
 
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Easy

Right Honorable Justice
Member
Fair warning after the fact (because that's a fair warning) I wrote this rather late at night after staring semi-blankly at a journal article on computational chemistry, so some inconsistencies are to be expected. That particular point was the least well developed in previous thoughts, as I was mostly hinging on "Come on, really, you're going to deny THAT?" and was more concerned overall with the more scientific side of "This is an actual phenomenon that exists". Honestly, it was practically an after thought and I probably should have left it out completely. Few people actually do deny the rise of CO2 concentration, so that argument was almost pointless even if it were valid. That is a good point I completely neglected though, plants do have far better absorbance of UV-Vis than concrete and buildings, though you are right again that they convert most of this into chemical energy. That does indeed make the point of any possible increase or decrease in plant population much more complicated. And the often neglected agricultural sector was again neglected by me. I will have to refine or drop that point entirely, it is drastically over simplified. Do you find any notable faults in the overall argument before that though? The solar spectrum seems mostly extraneous, as its impact was presumably accounted for by astronomers in the Earth's albedo and their value of solar intensity used for calculating the expected surface temperature mentioned in paragraph three.
Fairly extraneous, yeah, but I had a suspicion that there was a spectroscopy paper in the works behind all of this. I'd thought you were writing one for a chem class, actually, and that I ought to go ahead and point out that you'd forgotten to talk about the emission spectra. There was just that very, very familiar ring to your explanation of vibrational transitions that said to me: "Spectroscopy paper. Be sure to dedicate at least one medium-sized section to talking about the radiation source and emission spectra." And said it in the same tone of voice-in-my-head that's always telling me: "Man, spectroscopy is fucking dull."
I don't know of any substantial net H2O release by plants by the way, what are you referring to? Aside from H2O being consumed in photosynthesis, plants also typically require copious amounts of additional water in order to transfer what water they do need throughout themselves. Trees are particularly guilty of this.
Water in said tree goes from leaves to atmosphere, creating the pressure gradient that draws more water from trunk to leaves, which draws from roots to trunk, and soil to roots. When you see articles claiming "it takes 50 gallons of water to make an almond" or whatever, what they mean is: "an almond tree dumps many tons of water into atmo over the course of a growing season."*

*But really, the counter here is that water doesn't really stay in atmo. The amount of water that can be in atmo at a given time is very limited, which is why it's constantly falling down unto the ground. However, increases in average global temperature also end up increasing that limit, which also increases the average global temperature because now there's more IR-absorbing water everywhere. It's a bit of a pickle.
Also, totally unrelated, but thinking about it I need to refine my "balancing" analogy for dipole moments. I'm seeing some issues with it. It works fine for CO2, but I'm see how it can mislead with some molecules.
It's pretty good. You'd more or less have to start lecturing on wave harmonics and orbital frequencies and the like to do better.
 

Firedemon

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Fairly extraneous, yeah, but I had a suspicion that there was a spectroscopy paper in the works behind all of this. I'd thought you were writing one for a chem class, actually, and that I ought to go ahead and point out that you'd forgotten to talk about the emission spectra. There was just that very, very familiar ring to your explanation of vibrational transitions that said to me: "Spectroscopy paper. Be sure to dedicate at least one medium-sized section to talking about the radiation source and emission spectra." And said it in the same tone of voice-in-my-head that's always telling me: "Man, spectroscopy is fucking dull."
Thankfully no spectroscopy paper being written (though I'll be writing one in the style of a journal article later this semester for a lab report) but indeed one was involved. It probably sounded that way because I just had first semester physical chemistry (quantum mechanics) last semester.
 
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